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Post by daynieto on Nov 12, 2011 10:29:12 GMT -5
Hello everybody , i have a question for you all , now that Ninette is current on her vaccines i want her to socialize a bit with small dogs of a few friends here in the building , i don't take my dogs to dog parks but here in the building we have a fence area where dogs can be unleash , the thing is every time Ninette sees a dog she barks at them , i corrected her the other day when a friend came to talk to me with her male bichon Frise and she barks nonstop at him when all he was doing was trying to sniff her , i gave the command to Seat and told her NO when she bark , is this the right approach ? i never had this issue with Peggy Sue , she is always eager to meet all dogs big and small .
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Post by cathynu on Nov 12, 2011 12:43:41 GMT -5
I don't have any wisdom to share .... but I'm having a similar problem with Lilly, who now is getting more "aggressive" about it as she is getting older - she will now actually growl at the other dog. All I'm doing at the shows is to keep her away from other dogs and to tell people she tends to be snappy if they want their dogs to socialise with her.
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Post by damasyn on Nov 12, 2011 14:41:32 GMT -5
Do you have any parks in your area?? Not just dog off leash parks, but parks where dogs are on leash and lots of ppl  I think this is something that you need to do. I think alot of pups tend to go thru phases, like super shy, sensitive, or even hyper aggressive or similar. I am definately no expert, but in my opinion, they are TRYING to figure out the best response for those situations they are in. You need to teach them the appropriate response . I have always taken my pups ( after shots ) to the public park where dogs ARE ON LEASH. That way, they were not mauled or suddenly surrounded by over curious dogs. Where they could feel secure knowing that those other dogs will not bug them and they could watch from a distance or walk past them without being bothered. Only when my pups acted like they wanted to sniff or acknowledge them did I let them get closer. Then before my girl was done sniffing, I pulled her away. I didnt want her dictating WHEN she was done and wanted out of there.. I made it a point of deciding WE were done before her curiousity turned into anything else...fear, aggression. Like leaving on a good note. But that is what worked for me. I am sure there are alot of other ways to handle this situation. |
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Post by daynieto on Nov 12, 2011 16:50:39 GMT -5
Yes , we have a few good places here but she barks while on leash when dogs past by , that's why i asked if is ok to correct her or just continue walking ignoring the behavior ? i haven't had the chance to let her off leash with other dogs here in the building just yet .
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 12, 2011 17:58:13 GMT -5
Your corrections are not solving anything in fact their probably adding to the problem. Wrong word "problem" their pups and they want to run an play when they met other dogs. Your stopping a natural progression for them to learn. They don't have to be taught anything unless they fail, so far theres no nothing going on except corrections for being excited and wanting to "act" like dogs. The best way to train this situation is to have an older dog who isn't going to be intimitated by these rude pups and just cut them loose and let them be dogs. You need to be watchfull but being paranoid isn't the way to go your transmitting negative emotions which in turn are recieved as weakness by your dog. Even young pups pick that vibe up and may not understand your vibe totally but know its wrong.
Find a field thats secured or a tennis court or whatever you need to find and let the dogs be dogs. Move away from them when they play so theres no possessiveness going on. They'll sort it out and you'll be giving them the best exercise they can have. You can also use the situation (once they've played for a while) to tighten up your recall. Another dog is the best distraction. Another thing theres NO puppies that show Agression, if anything its excitment and uncertaince of the situation in front of them. Their way to young for real agression. Dobermanns love to play with other dogs, because their dogs too!!!! Really! Honestly they are! Von
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Post by daynieto on Nov 12, 2011 19:00:02 GMT -5
Your corrections are not solving anything in fact their probably adding to the problem. Wrong word "problem" their pups and they want to run an play when they met other dogs. Your stopping a natural progression for them to learn. They don't have to be taught anything unless they fail, so far theres no nothing going on except corrections for being excited and wanting to "act" like dogs. The best way to train this situation is to have an older dog who isn't going to be intimitated by these rude pups and just cut them loose and let them be dogs. You need to be watchfull but being paranoid isn't the way to go your transmitting negative emotions which in turn are recieved as weakness by your dog. Even young pups pick that vibe up and may not understand your vibe totally but know its wrong. Find a field thats secured or a tennis court or whatever you need to find and let the dogs be dogs. Move away from them when they play so theres no possessiveness going on. They'll sort it out and you'll be giving them the best exercise they can have. You can also use the situation (once they've played for a while) to tighten up your recall. Another dog is the best distraction. Another thing theres NO puppies that show Agression, if anything its excitment and uncertaince of the situation in front of them. Their way to young for real agression. Dobermanns love to play with other dogs, because their dogs too!!!! Really! Honestly they are! Von Thank you for your reply Von , I''ll definitely try that tomorrow , today we encounter three dogs in the elevator and i tried unsuccessfully to redirect her barking with a squeaky toy and treats , no luck ! |
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 13, 2011 11:14:37 GMT -5
Day - I think that IMHO that Ninettes response is not one of play - I think it is a display meant to intimidate and bully. This can be because she is a dominant, bold, self confident puppy who wants to be a boss alpha bitch or it can be because she actually a submissive, follower puppy who wants to keep new/strange dogs at a distance so that she feels safe.
I have had both types of dogs, and with out seeing her body language and the situation its hard to tell which situation is prompting the beahavioral response.
*warning* some pet people may find this hard to read - sorry
To me it really does not matter WHY she is responding this way - it cannot be allowed to continue - You must be watchful for your next encounter with another dog - you must be prepared, prior to getting too close to get her attention and tell her to "LEAVE IT" or "NO" or "WATCH ME" what ever your command is for her to pay attention to you. If she blows you off and makes the decision to react inappropriately, then IMHO she must be corrected swiftly, strongly and with sureness and to such a degree that she will remember the consequences for that horrible display and response to another dog that is not in her pack. Also be prepared for SWIFTLY, rewarding her and telling her good puppy when she stops this barking display and pays attention to YOU.
Day you cannot let this behavior continue - behavior that is repeated in response to a visual or auditory event, creats operant conditioning - if allowed to continue to repeat over and over she is learning that her response is "allowed" and she can do what she wants -not what you want
I know some are cringing at the harsh correction- but dobes are different -they learn to be bad just as fast as they learn to be good - right now ninette is making a bad decision. She cannot be allowed to do this.
Day if you are not comfortable or feel you are experienced enough to be doing this - then you need the help of a trainer who can come and evaluate her - and read her body language, and show you the proper timing and correction. A trainer would also be good to consult because you do need to know the "WHY OF IT" How you train her and correct her will change based on the type of character she has. Fear needs confidence building, Dominence and Alpha needs to respect when you say NO or LEAVE IT - thats what you mean - she does not get a vote! when it comes to being obedient!
NOW after saying all of this - IF you feel she is Play bowing and barking to elicit play - that is a different matter - my interpretation of her response was not one of play initiation. Von is absolutley correct if she is being playful.
I hope some of the other more experienced handlers/trainers will chime in her with some suggestions - I am not a professional, and I could be missing the mark entirely, and welcome other opinions on what might be going on in Ninettes Euro brain and how Day should handle it
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Post by cathynu on Nov 13, 2011 11:42:49 GMT -5
I am following this discussion WITH HUGE INTEREST ..... as I'm experiencing similar type reactions from Lilly .... in our case its dogs, kids making fast jerky movements, shopping carts, strange looking objects. Day does Ninette's legs shake when she is showing her "aggression", does her bark become a distressed one - Lilly's does when the neighbour's Weimeraner bitch and young puppy run up to the fence - she runs up on our deck and contines to bark at them and tries to get the pack to come and back her up!! I immediately bring her inside and tell her to "leave it" - I do the same whenever we're out in public - and I try to anticipate what she's going to do - when I see a dog approaching her at the shows or in PetSmart, I tell her to leave it or say no bark, no growl and then tell her she's a good girl if she responds in the correct manner as the other dog passes by ..... when my husband has her on the leash .... well that's a totally different story .... she doesn't listen to him at all .... but then neither does Rex .... and that again is another story that I don't feel like getting into today!!!
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Post by daynieto on Nov 13, 2011 13:07:08 GMT -5
I am following this discussion WITH HUGE INTEREST ..... as I'm experiencing similar type reactions from Lilly .... in our case its dogs, kids making fast jerky movements, shopping carts, strange looking objects. Day does Ninette's legs shake when she is showing her "aggression", does her bark become a distressed one - Lilly's does when the neighbour's Weimeraner bitch and young puppy run up to the fence - she runs up on our deck and contines to bark at them and tries to get the pack to come and back her up!! I immediately bring her inside and tell her to "leave it" - I do the same whenever we're out in public - and I try to anticipate what she's going to do - when I see a dog approaching her at the shows or in PetSmart, I tell her to leave it or say no bark, no growl and then tell her she's a good girl if she responds in the correct manner as the other dog passes by ..... when my husband has her on the leash .... well that's a totally different story .... she doesn't listen to him at all .... but then neither does Rex .... and that again is another story that I don't feel like getting into today!!! Cathy her leg doesn't shake when she barks at dogs and people , today we went in the elevator and a woman got in after me , i told Ninette to SEAT which she did , the woman was talking friendly to her and Ninette barked while walking towards her which i said right away NO , seat and i had to gently push her rear end because she would no comply , the woman put her hand near Ninette's nose so she smell her hand and then she relax ,it was like if she was telling the woman Pet me! |
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Post by daynieto on Nov 13, 2011 13:46:32 GMT -5
Day - I think that IMHO that Ninettes response is not one of play - I think it is a display meant to intimidate and bully. This can be because she is a dominant, bold, self confident puppy who wants to be a boss alpha bitch or it can be because she actually a submissive, follower puppy who wants to keep new/strange dogs at a distance so that she feels safe. I have had both types of dogs, and with out seeing her body language and the situation its hard to tell which situation is prompting the beahavioral response. *warning* some pet people may find this hard to read - sorry To me it really does not matter WHY she is responding this way - it cannot be allowed to continue - You must be watchful for your next encounter with another dog - you must be prepared, prior to getting too close to get her attention and tell her to "LEAVE IT" or "NO" or "WATCH ME" what ever your command is for her to pay attention to you. If she blows you off and makes the decision to react inappropriately, then IMHO she must be corrected swiftly, strongly and with sureness and to such a degree that she will remember the consequences for that horrible display and response to another dog that is not in her pack. Also be prepared for SWIFTLY, rewarding her and telling her good puppy when she stops this barking display and pays attention to YOU. Day you cannot let this behavior continue - behavior that is repeated in response to a visual or auditory event, creats operant conditioning - if allowed to continue to repeat over and over she is learning that her response is "allowed" and she can do what she wants -not what you want I know some are cringing at the harsh correction- but dobes are different -they learn to be bad just as fast as they learn to be good - right now ninette is making a bad decision. She cannot be allowed to do this. Day if you are not comfortable or feel you are experienced enough to be doing this - then you need the help of a trainer who can come and evaluate her - and read her body language, and show you the proper timing and correction. A trainer would also be good to consult because you do need to know the "WHY OF IT" How you train her and correct her will change based on the type of character she has. Fear needs confidence building, Dominence and Alpha needs to respect when you say NO or LEAVE IT - thats what you mean - she does not get a vote! when it comes to being obedient! NOW after saying all of this - IF you feel she is Play bowing and barking to elicit play - that is a different matter - my interpretation of her response was not one of play initiation. Von is absolutley correct if she is being playful. I hope some of the other more experienced handlers/trainers will chime in her with some suggestions - I am not a professional, and I could be missing the mark entirely, and welcome other opinions on what might be going on in Ninettes Euro brain and how Day should handle it Gail , I'm not allowing this behavior , i have been correcting with a No and telling her to Seat , if she comply i give her a treat , but then she start over , apparently the NO correction is not strong enough for her . I know the proper timing for correction I'm just not sure what kind of correction i can give at this age , can i pinch her neck like her mother does when they are acting out ? she is not bowing while barking , she doesn't walk/run towards the dog in a dominant way either but rather stay still with ears up and bark . She is confident and fearless for some things and for others not so much , for example at the vet the girl wanted to take her to the back to weight her and she wouldn't walk , then she tried to lift her up and she cried , she also cried the first day she met Peggy Sue , every time Peggy Sue got near her she cried , that behavior last only a few hours , on another note she is not afraid of the dremmel (which is awesome ) , she barks nonstop at Peggy Sue if she doesn't share the rope toy and if she have the opportunity to take it away she would , there are other rope toys on the floor but she wants the one Peggy has . I'll try to take a video next time we encounter a dog to post here , i'll have to ask my son to do it so i can correct her accordingly . Thank you very much for your input . |
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Post by damasyn on Nov 13, 2011 14:41:19 GMT -5
LOL . Varied responses ! I love it, for us its like back seat driving. We dont know your pup, your handling etc etc. It can be hard to judge behind a keyboard.
Lexi from Day one was a Dominant female, cautious, curious. When she saw something she was unsure of...Bark, bark, bark... and move TOWARD it. Look to me..see what kind of reaction I was giving... bark bark bark, move to it. Never backed away from anything. Now, when I say, LEAVE IT.. she just ignores it. But she needed to learn from me the correct way to deal with different situations ( IMO ).
I still think you should make a habit of going to a park where dogs are ON LEASH ONLY, lots of people, baby carts, kids... sensory overload and walk walk walk.. explore everything.. keep treats handy.. When she starts to bark and something, give her a POP on the collar and redirect her , maybe turn around and walk the other way. When she ignores it, treat and love.
Hehehe, I love taking Lexi to these parks, lots of kid Jungle Gyms too. Up the stairs, down the slides, over the rickety bridges, thru the tunnels. All with screaming kids, dogs, squirrels around it makes for wonderful training to ignore all this stuff and do the task I ask. I also use these for building trust. Put her up on things she cant get down off of ``to where she would look to me for help...to where she trusted me enough to KNOW I would catch her.. she would fling herself off once I opened my arms and said come... and jump into my arms.
Hmm I miss those days when she was small enough to do that... Now at almost 90 lbs, I dont think thats gonna happen..
sorry getting side tracked.
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Post by cathynu on Nov 13, 2011 16:00:04 GMT -5
Kim a whole new perspective to think of ..... thank you .... I might just try the dog park up the road .... not sure if its an on leash only .... will have to try find out, as the website says nothing ....
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 13, 2011 17:59:07 GMT -5
I agree with Kims approach which is Socialization an Plenty of it! The other thing I agree with is Gails comment on corrections but First she needs to play with other dogs and become a dog or your gonna have alot of problems if corrections come in front of communicating with other dogs first. She just might not put 2+2 together with the corrections and miss the reasoning for them and figure the correcting comes from ANY encounter with dogs not the fact that shes acting out. If you put the encounter together with proper play then do recall and OB right in front of the exercise buddy your training for those encounters positively. The other way without the buddy is a negative one.
Sorry but these dogs need a training lesson at times wheres theres a bunch of reasons for doing what we do. Another hint and this will be difficult to understand and most novice folks can't do it is;
If the situation has gotten out of hand and the dog will not focus on you I suggest you turn off about 90degrees and put the fastest quickest sharpest correction you can mustar on that lil bitch and gain her focus (not hurtfull just sharp)no if ands or butts and I do mean her Butt!! I don't care were I am or whos watching I don't put up with multiple correction incidents and its not the dogs fault shes in training its your fault...........even though your in training too.
If your gonna enlist compulsion correction then we just don't bull shit around they get quick fast corrections and it only takes ONE! Thats how the "old school" works when treats redirection and any other technique fails. Its plain its simple its to the point and it works, now remember to find a playmate and train from that exercising and when you met strangers your prepared and so is she instead of training cold you've done your prep work and shes ready, are you!!! So go and report back to me next week. Von
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Post by daynieto on Nov 13, 2011 18:05:33 GMT -5
LOL . Varied responses ! I love it, for us its like back seat driving. We dont know your pup, your handling etc etc. It can be hard to judge behind a keyboard. Lexi from Day one was a Dominant female, cautious, curious. When she saw something she was unsure of...Bark, bark, bark... and move TOWARD it. Look to me..see what kind of reaction I was giving... bark bark bark, move to it. Never backed away from anything. Now, when I say, LEAVE IT.. she just ignores it. But she needed to learn from me the correct way to deal with different situations ( IMO ). I still think you should make a habit of going to a park where dogs are ON LEASH ONLY, lots of people, baby carts, kids... sensory overload and walk walk walk.. explore everything.. keep treats handy.. When she starts to bark and something, give her a POP on the collar and redirect her , maybe turn around and walk the other way. When she ignores it, treat and love. Hehehe, I love taking Lexi to these parks, lots of kid Jungle Gyms too. Up the stairs, down the slides, over the rickety bridges, thru the tunnels. All with screaming kids, dogs, squirrels around it makes for wonderful training to ignore all this stuff and do the task I ask. I also use these for building trust. Put her up on things she cant get down off of ``to where she would look to me for help...to where she trusted me enough to KNOW I would catch her.. she would fling herself off once I opened my arms and said come... and jump into my arms. Hmm I miss those days when she was small enough to do that... Now at almost 90 lbs, I dont think thats gonna happen.. sorry getting side tracked. Kim , i use the NILF with my dogs but this is a new challenge for me and i want to be prepare to do things right , i will definitely try what you suggested ,i think exposing the pup to everything is important . You basically ignore the bark behavior ,pop the leash , turn the other way , ok i can do that too . A friend invite me to a dog party this Thursday here in the fence area in the building , Peggy Sue is not invited because is only for small dogs , do you think i should expose Ninette to that off leash party or should i keep her on the leash all the time ? or maybe miss the party ?  |
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 13, 2011 21:04:36 GMT -5
Day,
Now that you have added the other behaviors - it seems to me that she may be fearful and not confident - Kims suggestions are good - and Von's point on ONE good correction instead of several is one I totally agree with.
Sounds like your little girl is a mixed bag - and its going to take some observation to come to the right conclusion - is she being dominant pushy - or is she lacking in confidence and fearful - perhaps a mix of the two?
Please do try and get a video - and we will keep trying to help you figure it out - one thing is for sure - they are all different - and one size solutions do not fit all pups. We can all learn as we go through this.
I will tell you this though - the dominant Alpha puppy I just sold to california - would bark and bark and poke and be a Pain in the Azz to the other pups if he wanted to play and they wanted to sleep - it was anoying as all get out all that noise as he was frustrated that no one was awake and playing with him!
Keep us posted - you have lots of experience her to help figure out what is going on with ms ninette chantel!
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I think this is something that you need to do. I think alot of pups tend to go thru phases, like super shy, sensitive, or even hyper aggressive or similar. I am definately no expert, but in my opinion, they are TRYING to figure out the best response for those situations they are in. You need to teach them the appropriate response . I have always taken my pups ( after shots ) to the public park where dogs ARE ON LEASH. That way, they were not mauled or suddenly surrounded by over curious dogs. Where they could feel secure knowing that those other dogs will not bug them and they could watch from a distance or walk past them without being bothered. Only when my pups acted like they wanted to sniff or acknowledge them did I let them get closer. Then before my girl was done sniffing, I pulled her away. I didnt want her dictating WHEN she was done and wanted out of there.. I made it a point of deciding WE were done before her curiousity turned into anything else...fear, aggression. Like leaving on a good note. 
