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Post by trouble on Sept 20, 2011 15:56:10 GMT -5
Hi All Shortly a new article concerning the structure and functionallity of the Dobermann will soon be up on: www.thyra.co.uk/wordpress/This article is a short version of the part QTL's, which were to be a part of the cancled seminar in Florida. Hoping you will find the article interesting and educational. |
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Post by dobs4ever on Sept 20, 2011 17:41:59 GMT -5
Thank you so much Bitten - you just always have the best info to share.
I read it and it was very interesting.
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Post by trouble on Sept 21, 2011 2:49:44 GMT -5
Thank you so much Bitten - you just always have the best info to share. I read it and it was very interesting. Thank you and you are welcome - but this specific new article hasn't been added to the database yet ... |
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 21, 2011 11:36:20 GMT -5
Interesting to see the evolution of the breed on both sides of the water! I see a progression that seemed to carry forward up to 1980 in America then the over use of two dogs brought about major faults in structure and character. I also feel the same happened in Europe a few years later with a distinct change in the overall appearence of the dogs. Once again the over use of a few dogs that dominated in the conformation ring brought about negative structural components. When breeders can begin to reach out to different venues for improvements in their own breeding program maybe some positive results might be found. To go outside the lines that have been maintained by breeders and their mentors takes alot of courage but its time for couragous breeders. There are breeders currently trying to improve their breeding programs by moving away from line breeding and their showing some success but ofcourse the rewards do take years to reap. I believe the working dog breeders and the show breeders need each other in Europe. The facts are in and very clear as to health needs but thats to be understood. I don't like an activity such as Sch. to dictate how a Dobermann temperament should be. That test that is now a "sport" is an accredidation for GSD dogs, not a Dobermann who was breed for Personal Protection not tracking, not running around a field checking blinds. The breed is to be "by your side" thats Personal Protection. As for the American counter part that has been line breed far to closely, they are in desperate need of breeders who need to character test their breeding dogs so that the soft to cowardest temperaments are not being breed. The excuse of breeding a so-called "hard" dog is just ridiculous. Dobermanns with character can be PP trained to protect their families and homes and maintain a politness and understanding of how to act in public situations. Thats what character IS, without it the breed is not a Dobermann! Nice post Bitten, sorry for the rant but when it comes to Dobermanns in Europe looking like fat cows or the American dogs hiding under the bed with their owners I get a little..................touchy!!! late for lunch! Von
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Post by DeDe on Sept 21, 2011 15:01:32 GMT -5
Von, I do believe that this is one of the best posts I have seen in a very long time my friend! Thank you for summing up a whole lotta mess!!! I love the fact that Bitten has committed herself to the hard research and scientific approach to bring so much out in the open that so many people choose to ignore. And I also love your 'history' with the breed here in the US and the different influences that have taken place over the years.
The both of you, combined, are a force to be reckoned with indeed!!! Thank you for being a part of our small community, and thank you for trying to help educate all out here that WANT to learn!
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 21, 2011 18:56:34 GMT -5
I totally agree with you Von - and this was an excellent summary post of a very complex mess we've gotten ourselves in.
I look forward to reading the article - I think that both countries have lost their way in the respective breeding programs not only becuasee of the inbreeding (and I hate to say it but in america I'm not even sure the prominent breeders even knew what they were doing beyond breeding to the most popular/winning sire trying to "duplicate" someone else's breeding decision to try and achieve the same end). I also think too many people are breeding who do not UNDERSTAND and have an intimate working knowledge of form and function and how it relates to the soundness of structure in our breed - that is what conformation is - a sound structure, whose form can perform the fuction for which it was bred to do.
Like D4E's stool - you can't breed just for pedigree, or just for type, or just for conformation, Character etc. too many people are breeding dogs with out any true idea of what they are doing, and have no real expectation of what a proposed breeding will produce.
It always struck me as "odd" that breeders hired "professionals" or judges to come in and "grade" their litters - having a second opinion is a good thing, especially if you are kennel blind - but if you don't have the knowledge of structure and breed standard to evaluate your own pups - you should not be breeding at all IMHO.
Form and function as a conformation horse person is a religion to me - one that i've embraced for over 35 years - soundness of mind and body is just as important in dogs as in horses
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Post by trouble on Sept 22, 2011 4:24:36 GMT -5
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Post by dobs4ever on Sept 22, 2011 8:09:46 GMT -5
(quote)Form and function as a conformation horse person is a religion to me - one that i've embraced for over 35 years - soundness of mind and body is just as important in dogs as in horses <quote)
Well said Gail - Form follows function -
When I look at the early pictures of the Doberman and for example Dictator, Emperor, Demossi for example they are closer in appearance to some of the American Dobermans today before we went to the overangulation. They are lighter and straighter in front.
And as the article points out it seems the Euro side has gone to the "body builder" look as described in the article. I am going to have to read and reread these two articles to get it all clear in my head. It is a lot of ingest. But from what I gathered the Euro's with the heavy bone and sloping topline are in just as much trouble as those here with the overangulation.
In fact any major changes have been bad for our breed. Moderation is the word I think of.
Very thought prevoking Bitten and I am really glad you had the foresight to study these body types, head types, bone structure etc and apply it to our Dobermans. Hopefully another key we can use to unlock some of the problems.
Thanks again.
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Post by trouble on Sept 22, 2011 9:46:22 GMT -5
 Don't thank me - thank Sonia Garcia - as my contribution to this article is fairly small. i do though have to say, we have discussed the context strongly over the last 6 months ... |
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 22, 2011 12:13:43 GMT -5
Didn't want to get to far into this but one of the most important topics of the American dogs is the head!!! The overanglulation is a major fault but it is a far easier problem to address than the loss of masculinity on the male Dobermann head. The female side also has a problem with the lower jaw but then again when full dentation doesn't seem to be that important in exhibiting these animals at the akc sponsored shows the problem lies within. I don't like the box head on some Euros now but the opposite (American) sits on the shoulders of far to many so-called "show" dogs. I agree with Gail on her points and I've taken alot of crap by my stand about the akc but everyone misses my point and the point is!! If you need and rely on a certificate from a judge who more than likely doesn't have anything to do with the breeds history, passed & present. Then you know less than he/she does? Thats pretty sad and unfortunately today I see more and more so-called reputatable people who actually know very little. I'm presently trying to address the need to evaluate dogs that are used to breed. I want to know what tests are done to varify that the dogs have the correct character as stated in the breeds Standard before the breedings take place. Sounds reasonable especially when so mant demand that physical health tests are needed. I'm challenging the breeders to pay equal attention to the "faulty" character thats prevalent in todays dogs. This is MY study after over 45 years of evaluating all kinds of breeds for PP and specializing in Dobermanns because their my choice of breeds.
American; Lack of underjaw, stove piped necks, no spring of rib, overdone shoulders, "cat like feet" (ridiculous) three different breaks in the topline from the neck to the croup, overangulated dog, (cash & Lex combo & others)!!!!
Euros; Box heads, short necks, straight fronts, no spring of rib, short legged, no tuck up, to much cow hockness.
Just some obvious faults that show up way to much on dogs that are exhibited in high standard shows. If people would be honest and accept the breeds Standard as their Blueprint things could get better and sooner than later too. Seems reasonable to me!!
Von
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Post by trouble on Sept 22, 2011 12:36:34 GMT -5
Yes, people should comply to the standard - as should the JUDGES ... The Judges decides the trend -> "people" follow this - but that is not the point of the article.
Does the American bred Dobermann have structure problems - yes, indeed - again, this is not the point of the article.
I know this article is a mouthfull - but scientific research give evidence of, that the change of structure, which has happend in Europe, is NOT beneficial to the breed - not in regard to health nor functionallity and work ability - This is the point of the article.
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 22, 2011 13:44:39 GMT -5
No shit!! Thats what I'm saying Bitten. Plus if the organizations hiring these judges made them more accountable then we would have better judging. I believe its on the breeders, they have the final say (picking their stock), to blame the judges Bitten is just passing the buck. The breeders dictate which judges are used in the long run anyways.
Ofcourse the changes aren't benefical just look at the structure alone from 1965 to 2010.
I get the point of the article Bitten, I personally can't follow your language when you speak of the findings and upcoming tests on DCM. When it comes to form an function I'm very well versed and although I'm known for PP training I'm very well educated on exhibition for conformation. Thanx Von
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Post by trouble on Sept 23, 2011 7:50:06 GMT -5
I'll not comment on your entry VC
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Post by DeDe on Sept 23, 2011 9:00:42 GMT -5
This info is excellent in the way it is being scientifically proven, FINALLY! We've all seen the changes between the dogs over the years, and now there's more facts behind what is actually going on.
I find it interesting, although I don't fully comprehend it yet, that certain structural changes are being linked to the character changes... Personally, it will take a while for me to digest/understand this.
I think the 'blame' needs to lie with the breeders AND the judges that have pushed this 'trend' in the looks. Both in the US and abroad. It's up to the BREEDERS though to 'TOW THE LINE' and do what is BEST for the breed. If the judges don't like it, that's too damned bad! We can't just breed for what 'sells', we have to commit ourselves to breed for the 'betterment'. The problem is finding breeders that are willing to do just that, and ignore the trends that today's judges are looking for.
IF I understood the article correctly (which I don't think I fully did), it would appear that the proper 'character' could be found within the same structural/genetic makeup as the more greyoid types? I hope that this part of it at least can be explained a little further...
Again, excellent article! Lots of food for thought! Now, how are the breeders going to take up this ball?
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Post by trouble on Sept 23, 2011 9:23:28 GMT -5
Hi DeDe ...
you wrote:
->
IF I understood the article correctly (which I don't think I fully did), it would appear that the proper 'character' could be found within the same structural/genetic makeup as the more greyoid types? I hope that this part of it at least can be explained a little further
<-
Answer is:
Boldness and trainability are the most important traits of personality dimension of a working dog (Svartberg, 2002). Significant QTL for boldness are located in chromosome 15 (position 44.1Mb) (Chase et al., 2009) just in the more influent region of genome (44 Mb) where are located significant QTLs for multiple anatomical traits (figure 15) that regulate lengths of head, face, zygomatic, snout, body, neck, tibia, humerus, femur, radio, metatarsal, metacarpal, widths of femur, humerus, metatarsal, metacarpal, heights of mandible, and others (Boiko et al., 2010). Then the selection of anatomical traits in the modern European Dobermann can provide a rational explanation to the observed variations in trainability from classic type of Dobermann regardless the specific selection of behavior traits.
= not character, but will and ability to work.
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Don't thank me - thank Sonia Garcia - as my contribution to this article is fairly small. i do though have to say, we have discussed the context strongly over the last 6 months ...