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Post by dobs4ever on Sept 23, 2011 9:28:12 GMT -5
(quote)I'm challenging the breeders to pay equal attention to the "faulty" character thats prevalent in todays dogs. This is MY study after over 45 years of evaluating all kinds of breeds for PP and specializing in Dobermanns because their my choice of breeds. (quote)
I could not agree more Von. Too few today have ever worked a dog at anything but the show ring.
I am like DeDe still reading and re reading to get it straight on what is linked to the major health issues but it appears that as we follow a fad we weaken the structure and have created health issues.
I hope I have that right Bitten - please correct me if that very general understanding is wrong.
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Post by trouble on Sept 23, 2011 12:59:25 GMT -5
->
I am like DeDe still reading and re reading to get it straight on what is linked to the major health issues but it appears that as we follow a fad we weaken the structure and have created health issues.
<-
One example of this is the research rapport from Finland in regard to HD => increase of less good hips has been 6% - see the paper ..
Another example could be that of Wobblers - as I have stated previously in another topic, it's actuially not the lenght of the neck, but that the necks lenght must be in accodance to the overall body => be in correct proporsion
The above are merely a few examples ...
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 23, 2011 14:45:08 GMT -5
A structure without proper proportions has little to no chance to attain balance! When you evaluate a dogs looks the first thing to take into consideration is the dogs "overall" look. Thats Balance!!
A dog can still have elements that are weak or simply go against the blue print Standard, Those are Proportions!!
Both of these simple intangibles should be the first elements investigated by a breeder when choosing dogs to breed.
Theres much more to consider ofcourse but the basics need to be studied first.
Theres been many a Champion Titled dog from the show ring who had more than just a few minor faults but the dog maintained a great Balanced look and thats all a novice will see.
It seems to me that many breeders have forgotten the basics, the base must be strong or the structure will be weak eventually.
Von
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Post by trouble on Oct 27, 2011 18:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by DeDe on Oct 30, 2011 10:15:37 GMT -5
AWESOME read, as usual Bitten!!! Thank you so much for keeping us up on all the research and documentation!
ALL dobermann (doberman pinscher) lovers need to be aware of the issues involved with our dogs today so that we can make a difference!!!! Without education and knowledge, and people like Bitten to help keep us informed, our breed will certainly continue to decline.
Again, thank you sooooo much for the time and energy you devote to helping all of us! :-)
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 1, 2011 14:29:49 GMT -5
Dede and Von, I think the way forward is for enough breeders to breed what is structurely correct and correct in character. If what the breeders put in the pipeline to be shown is correct to the standard then the judges will have more correct dogs to consider.
Unfortunately - we can't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room - the almighty dollar/euro has to be recognized. The breeders getting the most press i.e recognition are the ones winning in the ring the majority of those winning in the AKC are those dogs with wealthy owners or wealthy consoritums sponsoring the dogs. Thats why I have said for years - that you are not seeing the best quality representatives of the breed in the AKC Ring or Westminister - you are seeing the best quality dogs with the largest bank accounts. The dog that won the Nationals this year is a perfect example of the extreme to which the breed has departed from the standard.
I personally am hoping that there will be enough "good" examples of the breed that seek out the UKC venue and IABCA for evaluation - the UKC may be the solution to providing an affordable and welcoming venue to have dogs assessed.
I understand about the character traits being located on the same chromosomes as those that also dictate structure - so when you change structure you can affect character - but to me where the conclusion is hard for me to accept - is that character is a passenger in that genetic car and structure is a passenger in that genetic car - If we switch out a skinny structured dog for a Heavier structured dog - I don't see how it affects the passenger in the back seat that is the dogs character. its too big a leap for me to accept that the character passenger is attached in a symbiotic relationshipp to the structuer passenger.
This is indeed heavy mental lifting in order to comprehend the message - but as a breeder - I acknowledge that it is important to understand in order to use this knowledge to its best advantage.
Great thought provoking articles Bittne
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Post by trouble on Nov 7, 2011 7:36:29 GMT -5
Gail - yes, it is difficult to understand that trait / genetic heritage of structure and traits of character are placed on the same chromosome, but these findings have been done by various scientists and not a postulate of the writer of the article. To me it makes sence, as the change of structure the breed in Europe has undergone within the last 20 years or so, has also given individuals with less good character and work ability - merely speaking from what I personally have experienced ... The working trials/tests has one time after the other been amended to fit the quality of the breeds participating - this can especially be seen in the Körungs, ZTP and the IPO. As for the latter, and as merely one example of this form of change of performance requirements, the length of the tracks used within the IPO working system, has been shorten - higher value has been set on obedience, also in bite work sessions, where the fighter and possible protector will obtain less points, as it's most likely to be "unclean" and the dogs where these traits have been lowered, will obtain higher points due to, that they are far more clean (easier to control) also in the courage tests it's seen, as far more dogs have become "flyby's" and then do a so-called counter attack, where as in the past, the dogs wouldn't as often do a flyby ... there are ofcorse many other situations which could be mentioned ...
As for overall movements - and from what I have seen, it has become a rarety to see a dog actually run/fload when running - they are merely pulling along, and NOT showing actual movements - this has become common, and hence is overall accepted at shows, and less value on the individuals movements are taken into account when evaluating the dogs quality - then there's the duraty of the dogs, previously it was "normal" to run the dogs for far longer in the ring at shows, today - it's around 2 labs, both in the basic presentation and the individual presentation - still the dogs after such short period of running, are standing and gasping for air ... yes, it gives thought for overall evaluation of the general structure of the dogs, but also why the judges are accepting this ....
Also - do read the structual side effects - the various spine problems which are occuring and due to the change of structure ... having access to cause of death of many dogs, it has become fairly common that the dogs at middle age are being put down due to "spinal" problems - again, another issue that makes one wonder what is nad has been going on - why is this occuring, and due to which reasons ...
As additional information - I believe yet an additional article is on its way, can't say exactly when, but will keep you all updated.
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 7, 2011 14:54:23 GMT -5
Gail - yes, it is difficult to understand that trait / genetic heritage of structure and traits of character are placed on the same chromosome, but these findings have been done by various scientists and not a postulate of the writer of the article. To me it makes sence, as the change of structure the breed in Europe has undergone within the last 20 years or so, has also given individuals with less good character and work ability - merely speaking from what I personally have experienced ... The working trials/tests has one time after the other been amended to fit the quality of the breeds participating - this can especially be seen in the Körungs, ZTP and the IPO. color=Maroon]Bitten this has happened here in the US as well - the development of the Rally competition and the addition of a Beginner Novice division for obedience - reflects more on the duming down of the tests more because of the handlers lack of ability than the dogs - but I can see and accept what you are saying about the dumbing down of the tests so that the dogs can excell instead of fail by the older measurement of performance. [/color]As for the latter, and as merely one example of this form of change of performance requirements, the length of the tracks used within the IPO working system, has been shorten - higher value has been set on obedience, also in bite work sessions, where the fighter and possible protector will obtain less points, as it's most likely to be "unclean" and the dogs where these traits have been lowered, will obtain higher points due to, that they are far more clean (easier to control) also in the courage tests it's seen, as far more dogs have become "flyby's" and then do a so-called counter attack, where as in the past, the dogs wouldn't as often do a flyby ... there are ofcorse many other situations which could be mentioned ... As for overall movements - and from what I have seen, it has become a rarety to see a dog actually run/fload when running - they are merely pulling along, and NOT showing actual movements - this has become common, and hence is overall accepted at shows, and less value on the individuals movements are taken into account when evaluating the dogs quality You are again so right Bitten I am a horse person - have bred conformation show hunters and jumpers for over 30 years - movement is everything to a true athlete - movement does not lie - lack of it however does shout out that there is something structurally wrong with the dog - I see it more in the Euro dogs than the American - but the euro dogs have a size 10 front end and a size 6 or 7 rear end - these dogs have no length of hip and are over angulated - the rear end in any performance animal is the engine - where the power comes from - if you have too small an engine in the rear - you force the front end to pull to copensate for lack of ability to drive from behind - the american dogs have lost their rears as well but what they have lost is the length of hip - there is no depth - so the rears are not strong and the same thing is able to be seen when the dogs are gated - very few at the trot will step under and push off as they go forward - the general impression is that the front is pulling the back is trailing behind - then there's the duraty of the dogs, previously it was "normal" to run the dogs for far longer in the ring at shows, today - it's around 2 labs, both in the basic presentation and the individual presentation - still the dogs after such short period of running, are standing and gasping for air ... yes, it gives thought for overall evaluation of the general structure of the dogs, but also why the judges are accepting this .... Bitten how much of this do you think can be attributed to the over all lack of fitness in the handlers/trainers of the dogs? if the owners are gasping at the end of 2 laps then the dogs are only fitted up to the ability of the trainer/handlerAlso - do read the structual side effects - the various spine problems which are occuring and due to the change of structure ... having access to cause of death of many dogs, it has become fairly common that the dogs at middle age are being put down due to "spinal" problems - again, another issue that makes one wonder what is nad has been going on - why is this occuring, and due to which reasons ... Bitten - I am not surprised the back is a bridge between the front and the back - the loins on the dogs are entirely too long - the loin if too long is a weakness in the strength of the span of the back - the lack of understand of conformation and structure and functionality by breeders who ignore these things have been costly to the doberman we know todayAs additional information - I believe yet an additional article is on its way, can't say exactly when, but will keep you all updated. [/quote] Even though I speak from the view point as a breeder, and there are other breeders on this forum - anyone who wants their dobe to be a performance animal MUST teach themselves about the standard - basic conformation good and bad, and study how different conformation affects the functionality and physical abilities of their performance dog. Lots of dogs perform through sheer will and heart - almost any dog can do anything - but at a cost - if he is bred with the right structure - being an athlete will be an easy job because he does not have to work to overcome the lack of proper structure need to perform the job! Great Thread |
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Post by cathynu on Nov 7, 2011 15:28:55 GMT -5
This thread and the articles posted by Bitten have to be the most profound stuff I have read about our breed sofar. As you all know I am a total novice, but not adverse to learning from all the pro's, so all of this has been a wonderful learning experience for me. At the same time I am reading the Doberman Standard for what feels like the 100th time - I am still struggeling with it some, but a lot of what our breed is, is way clearer to me, because everytime I go through another part of the standard I revert to this thread!!! So once again I have to lift my hat and glass to all you wonderful people. Hopefully someday, I will also be able to contribute to the more indebth discussions .... but until then, I will continue reading all that gets posted and try to learn as much as I can!!!
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 7, 2011 17:38:49 GMT -5
Well aren't you the Rare One! Good for you, and it takes 300 times to get it to start sinkin' in. Once you feel you have an idea of the basic conformation areas you make a cheat sheet and head out to an exhibition show and sit close to the ring and observe. At first it will be to quick for you so you may want to observe the dogs outside the ring waiting to go in or coming out. The examination part when everyone is standing is a good opportunity be seated on the side that best suits your vision. Next year let me know if you can pick the winners. Cause theres plenty of judges who can't !!!! Von
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Post by trouble on Nov 7, 2011 19:51:48 GMT -5
Gail:
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Bitten how much of this do you think can be attributed to the over all lack of fitness in the handlers/trainers of the dogs? if the owners are gasping at the end of 2 laps then the dogs are only fitted up to the ability of the trainer/handler
<--
As the dogs most of the time, when at their homes or otherwise out, or off lead or on a long lead - they will get far more excersice than any human => they should be able to cope with 2 labs without any problems or gasping - eventhough that the handlers/owners don't ... Aside from that, when you are sitting close to the ring, or standing as i most of the time do - look at the mouth/colour of the flesh, and you will often find it fairly light coloured in these situations too, plus froming around their mouth - yet another less positive visual picture of the dogs condition and possible health situation.
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Post by trouble on Nov 7, 2011 19:55:05 GMT -5
Another issue, which I see at the shows, and also is fairly common in the photos presented on the internet, is the set of the elbows - Most of these individuals have elbows stikking out in the stand position, where as the standard clearly says, that the elbows must lay closely to the body ... again totally ignored from the side of the judges - a shame, as the position of the elbows give a clear visual picture of the incorrect front angualtions.
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