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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 5, 2011 20:18:24 GMT -5
I was just on my favorite forum and a well known breeders lineage puppy just died of what sounds like DCM;
not only is this incredibly sad, but its incredible period....
this puppy is from Betelges kennels and is an Obi x Galilea daughter that was imported from Serbia.
She was only 6 months old and had developed an enlarged heart and fluid around her heart and she died. so young... so early!
The owner has another Betelges bitch that is pretty young and he is just beside himself with grief and of course with questions.
Bitten responded to him with some great information and she also recommended a test called a "cTnI" test that can be done that she feels is a fairly accurate indicator if your dog will develop DCM or not.
I am curious what that test is?
I am also curious what age it can be done and why it is more accurate than the current tests that are out there?
I am also curious what it is in indicator of?
Why would it not be on OUR List of tests to do for our dogs as common knowledge even if its only FAIRLY accurate?
I am also wondering myself with regards to all of this recent info I have read about how there is a very strong link of the parvo vaccine protocols and DCM in ALL breeds not just Dobermans and those that might be more susceptible based on their bloodlines/heridity, and that link as well...
so much to learn and so much to be aware of.. I keep falling back to the first basic rule of health:
NUTRITION and how vital it is and how vital it is that our dogs have some sort of viable continual source of enzymes in their gut to ensure that they have every possible benefit of surviving at all let alone, surviving these devasting diseases like DCM and this owners most recent loss of such a young and vibrant puppy!
My heart goes out to this man who lost his baby dog.... just breaks my heart!
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Post by Kia on Sept 5, 2011 20:50:40 GMT -5
As opposed to this being not your favorite forum?
I digress - -
I hate to hear about the puppy. So sad to loss them so young.
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Post by breesmom on Sept 5, 2011 20:56:44 GMT -5
Awww that is so sad.....next time you are on your "favorite" forum please give them my deepest condolences  |
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 5, 2011 23:01:46 GMT -5
Kia: this is my favorite 'real forum'... the favorite forum on facebook, would have been a more accurate qualifier....
yes, this is deeply disturbing to me... this puppy was 6 months old and obviously developed this probably a few months before or from birth and this puppy was obtained at 3 months of age!
I am just so heart pained for this guy because so many of us have new puppies at present... this is so incredible to hear about at such a juvenile age!
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Post by damasyn on Sept 6, 2011 0:10:08 GMT -5
Wow ! That is sickening ! I dont know much about the Betelges ( or any for that matter ) line, but if they really havent had DCM in their lines and to all of a sudden pop up like this and so young to boot ~~~ just makes you wonder about all of the hard work put into testing, if this pops up out of the blue ~~~ where does this put us?? Feels like going back to square one. Who gets it, why , when...etc etc
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Post by DeDe on Sept 6, 2011 5:50:42 GMT -5
If you will recall, we've been discussing some 'NEW' tests coming out for the past year. This test Bitten mentioned is just now only available in the UK. They are also researching yet another, more accurate, test to be coming out next! This test has JUST hit the open world of info as of 3 weeks ago. We have been posting here on the Station, as well as on FB, to make people aware of these new, more accurate, tests since it was announced. Hopefully it will make it to the US very soon!!!!!!! thedobermannstation.com/index.cgi?board=testing&action=display&thread=393 |
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 6, 2011 11:13:48 GMT -5
What is sad here is that the puppy was 6 months old... TOO young to be tested affirmately and of course who would think to test a 3-4 month old puppy?
This is just heart wrenching and its so close to home for me... because the sire of that litter is basically a 'cousin' to my puppy....
Beteleges is NO stranger to DCM... they are heavy line breeding, in breeding and all about type and showing their dogs. They are a lovely kennel with lovely dogs... but that particular breeding had alot of DCM in it and the man who bought the puppy did not know much about DCM before he bought. Its his second Betelges puppy....
My friend Denise has a Betelges bitch who is 3 years old and was diagnosed with DCM and she is on treatment and doing well! but she is afraid too for her other dog....
The lineage is heavy on DCM on one side of the breeding and not so much on the fathers side as the Dam's.... but 6 months old? Nothing he could have done to prevent or even test for it, really...
I have read about the Troponin testing and have googled it and it is a test that is also performed for people who have had a heart attack or heart damage and its a high indicator of the potentiality for heart attack in the future. So troponin testing just went onto my list of things to do with My dobies this year.... especially for Gemma who has DCM behind her as well and who is now 19 months old.
Just a really sad, sad thing to have read the other day.... wanted to spark a discussion about things to do and how early we should begin doing them with our beloved breed!
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 6, 2011 11:55:47 GMT -5
Betelges like any other breeder who breeds alot of litters yearly strictly as a business is beginning to have luck turn bad. I'm sure theres more than two out there who have died very young. I said two because I had a Betelges pup die in my arms at 12 weeks old from a PDA heart (enlarged)!! When you increase your litters you also increase your chances of failures in the health departments. Betelges breeds from questionable lines and although his luck has been pretty good its beginning to faulter. I researched Betelges pretty closely a few years ago and the responses I got from people who knew him personally thought he was knowledgable and reputable so I decided to buy from him. It seems I jumped in at a turning point in the kennels legitimate efforts to produce quality. It seems simply producing a product off of Baron Nike along with Gino Gomez on the females side and again stamped by Nikes son Fedor set up a very profitable puppy explosion. To bad that a promising breeder turned greeder but it happens alot on both sides of the ocean.
ps/ my pup who passed was Umar Betelges a son of Fedors.
Von
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Post by DeDe on Sept 6, 2011 11:55:55 GMT -5
With all of the 'environmental' influences being discovered today that link back to DCM, neurological disorders, and others, it's making it harder and harder to trust the tests they keep throwing out there for us. We all have to make a conscious effort to breed for better overall health, but, how are we going to continue to guarantee all of these health issues that are also environmentally influenced? Sad day indeed when babies are dying from this horrible disease..... |
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 6, 2011 12:05:05 GMT -5
What is sad here is that the puppy was 6 months old... TOO young to be tested affirmately and of course who would think to test a 3-4 month old puppy? This is just heart wrenching and its so close to home for me... because the sire of that litter is basically a 'cousin' to my puppy.... Beteleges is NO stranger to DCM... they are heavy line breeding, in breeding and all about type and showing their dogs. They are a lovely kennel with lovely dogs... but that particular breeding had alot of DCM in it and the man who bought the puppy did not know much about DCM before he bought. Its his second Betelges puppy.... My friend Denise has a Betelges bitch who is 3 years old and was diagnosed with DCM and she is on treatment and doing well! but she is afraid too for her other dog.... The lineage is heavy on DCM on one side of the breeding and not so much on the fathers side as the Dam's.... but 6 months old? Nothing he could have done to prevent or even test for it, really... I have read about the Troponin testing and have googled it and it is a test that is also performed for people who have had a heart attack or heart damage and its a high indicator of the potentiality for heart attack in the future. So troponin testing just went onto my list of things to do with My dobies this year.... especially for Gemma who has DCM behind her as well and who is now 19 months old. Just a really sad, sad thing to have read the other day.... wanted to spark a discussion about things to do and how early we should begin doing them with our beloved breed! Well - one of the things to do is to do your pedigree research, to try and lower the risk of DCM and other health issues in the pedigree - you did this wil Saava - you did not choose the lowest risk pedigree - but you did choose a lower risk pedigree than many that are being bred today in europe - The next thing to do is to somehow get someone to back and sponsor the Troponin testing to make it available here in the US - its amazing to me that the DPCA has not stepped up and done this - this is our parent organization for dobermans here in this country and it is their duty to respond to something so important to this breed as an individual test that has a high precentage of predicting an individuals possiblity of developing DCM. And 6 months - yes I have heard of this and heard of much younger as with Von Cosack's pup @ 12 weeks - with more and more frequency - Betelges has lovely dogs - and Obi and Fedor are beautiful dogs in my eyes -BUT once I studied their pedigrees - there is no way with good conscience I would ever use either of them as a stud dog. Breeders that do so are playing Russian Roulette as far as I am concerned - bred to a bitch with a low incidence of DCM, you may get lucky - but you may not - too big of a gambol to me. Every breeder has that decision to make - Just like with Gemma's back lines - you have to make the decision of whether to use her or not and how much risk there is. All the best diet, and judicious environmental control of vaccines etc will not make a damn bit of difference if you deliberately breed dogs who have DCM close up and contributing high percentage of influence in the pedigrees of your puppies. I feel sorry for the person who has this puppy, he has paid a high price for not doing due dilligence in researching the pedigree. I have no idea what guarantee comes with a Betelges puppy - but I would make damn sure I did my research before getting another puppy - and I would want one from different bloodlines if at all possible |
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Post by doberdelight on Sept 6, 2011 12:19:53 GMT -5
was this definitely DCM or are we just speculating? just wondered before i reply
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 6, 2011 12:29:25 GMT -5
Lynz this is the quote from the OPs initial post that makes it pretty certain that it was DCM, enlarge heart
Now, there are some things we have posted here in DS that environmentally can CAUSE Heart Disease or DCM - but with this pups pedigree - IMHO you don't have to look much further than the pedigree to decide that this was a genetically caused case of DCM. I wonder if he sent any tissue samples or blood to any of the research studies? that would have been very beneficial IMHO
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 6, 2011 16:10:51 GMT -5
was this definitely DCM or are we just speculating? just wondered before i reply The puppy died of an enlarged heart and fluid on the lungs and around the heart.... as per "Bitten".. it sounds like DCM and she encouraged the owner to read about the new testing and the Troponin testing etc.... so I think its pretty safe to say that it was 'DCM"... he did not have an autopsy which would have verified it 100%. But as I said, a friend of mine has a Betelges bitch who is 3 years old.. she is Von Stam and Betelges and she is DCM positive and on meds at present and doing well. Gail: as for Gemma.. you know why we did the pedigree research for SAAVA and why we/ you and I; have done the research into WHO to breed her too... we agreed that Trotyl was a good choice to balance out and diversify her 'genetic suitcase" (My favorite term of yours) and we are still doing that aren't we? We are still up in the air as to who to breed her to to mitigate her 'bad baggage' and we have tested her, gotten her MEURS DNA test.. did her EKG and her Ultra Sound and I am doing a troponin test on her soon and her first holter testing this month. So we are going to go the distance here to find a suitable match to totally mitigate her 'issues' and we are coupling that with superior nutrition, supplementation and herbal remedies that strengthen the heart muscle and diminish lactate and troponin... as much as possible and I have started reading about Troponin studies and treatments for humans that would also bear well for animals... its all a gamble no matter what! so do we throw in the towel? hell no.... but we do grieve for those like Gonzalo and Von who had to lose a puppy to this disease! that just sucks the big one! |
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 6, 2011 17:37:00 GMT -5
To bad Slobodan showed no sorry, he was more concerned about me calling the FCI and explaining the situation. Poor Simon was nervous about me posting that the great Fedor is throwing PDA hearts. Your dog can be clear on monday and very sick on friday so testing can catch a thief in the action but misses the vast majority. If your ped is smoothered in Citone and shows Prinz you should be very concerned. Didn't the dog your planning on using just pass, or was that his sire? Lots to consider before venturing into breeding, ofcourse theres Temperament testing to so that only stable minds will be bred. Von
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 7, 2011 0:43:13 GMT -5
Von: the dogs I am considering for Gemma are Trotyl De Black Shadow (argentina) or Urbano Del Diamante Nero.... Saava's sire is still alive, just did a 'high in trial" 283 score at 8 years old in Oct 2010. He is still alive... and still working and also still showing and finished as a V1- in a recent show in Croatia or Serbia. He has an excellent mix of unique ancestors and also a very high average life span 11, and low Co Efficient of breeding and the bitch he was bred too, is also a 'no name' so to speak of 'popular sires'... so I chose him specifically for this.
My bitch has no citone and very far back Prinz.. but Prinz Norden Stam is in everything... She has the dreaded "T" litter out of Russia and she also has "Pimm's"... which died recently at 9 years old of 'unknown' causes.. rumor has it, it was steroids as rumor has it that the Russian'sa are 'sterioding' their males.. rumor comes from Serbia... first hand... so we do not know. She has other unique pedigree mitigation, but she has already been tested and is DCM hetero, and she has already been Echo'd, Doppler'd and also EkG'd... but she will be Holter monitored this month and also I will be doing that Troponin test as well. we do and can hope and believe the best always in all things! Its served us well for many many years! My mastiff's lived to be 10 and 12 respectively and that was OLD for a Neo... Neo's are usually gone by around 7-9...
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