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Post by DeDe on Sept 7, 2011 5:42:40 GMT -5
Keep us informed on the new testing you do on Gemma. I would love to hear more first hand info on it! Good luck.  |
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Post by dobs4ever on Sept 7, 2011 8:20:23 GMT -5
(quote)With all of the 'environmental' influences being discovered today that link back to DCM, neurological disorders, and others, it's making it harder and harder to trust the tests they keep throwing out there for us. We all have to make a conscious effort to breed for better overall health, but, how are we going to continue to guarantee all of these health issues that are also environmentally influenced?(quote) I agree with the above and medications we put them on also have an influence and it can pop up at anytime in any line. When I posted the info that Nellie posted to the DPCA and UDC list I got blasted for misrepresenting and spreading rumor. I did ask if anyone has heard of it and evidently there is a Doctor here in the US who started using the BNP (is that right) I am doing it from memory and then Bitten posted that there was not a definitive test yet but they were wanting to research one - so I have been confused and frustrated as have many. We want a one test fix and I am not sure we will have it. I think right now Dr. Meurs has a little egg on her face with her PDK4 test. She developed the test 2 years before for Boxers and yet gave us no info on what she had learned in the two years and how it would influence the Doberman test. There is no fool proof method and there are no guarantees. That is what is most frustrating to everyone. There are dogs out of lines that live long and there are dogs that have died young. 6 months is extremely young and heartbreaking. What does it say if a dog lives in spite of pedigree?  What does it say if a dog dies in a pedigree?? Do we really have enough info to totally eliminate a large chunk of the gene pool??? Dr. Meurs said no??? Does she know what she is talking about??? If we find dogs that test negative for all DCM ever will there be enough to keep the gene pool healthy and vibrant or will the radical elimination destroy the breed??? |
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 7, 2011 13:35:04 GMT -5
Von: the dogs I am considering for Gemma are Trotyl De Black Shadow (argentina) or Urbano Del Diamante Nero.... Saava's sire is still alive, just did a 'high in trial" 283 score at 8 years old in Oct 2010. He is still alive... and still working and also still showing and finished as a V1- in a recent show in Croatia or Serbia. He has an excellent mix of unique ancestors and also a very high average life span 11, and low Co Efficient of breeding and the bitch he was bred too, is also a 'no name' so to speak of 'popular sires'... so I chose him specifically for this. My bitch has no citone and very far back Prinz.. but Prinz Norden Stam is in everything... She has the dreaded "T" litter out of Russia and she also has "Pimm's"... which died recently at 9 years old of 'unknown' causes.. rumor has it, it was steroids as rumor has it that the Russian'sa are 'sterioding' their males.. rumor comes from Serbia... first hand... so we do not know. She has other unique pedigree mitigation, but she has already been tested and is DCM hetero, and she has already been Echo'd, Doppler'd and also EkG'd... but she will be Holter monitored this month and also I will be doing that Troponin test as well. we do and can hope and believe the best always in all things! Its served us well for many many years! My mastiff's lived to be 10 and 12 respectively and that was OLD for a Neo... Neo's are usually gone by around 7-9... Diva - just wanted to correct one thing Gemma is line bred on Prinz - in the 8 generation pedigree analysis I did for you Prinz appears 7 times with an influence of 25.78% ranked #3 in ancestors influencing her pedigree - so the only dogs with greater influence than Prinz are Gemma's Sire and Dam. You are doing all the right things with testing - and you may get lucky - Gino who has Prinz as a grand sire has lived past 10, but other Prniz progeny have not been so lucky. Continue testing like you are doing is the best course of action. |
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 7, 2011 16:21:35 GMT -5
You say theres no Citone in her pedigree yet Prinz is? Prinz is one of the biggest influences in Citones. As for Pimms I know abit about him, his pup Viking Betelges is my dog Viho. He was the counsilation prize when Umar Betelges died. After Slobodan refused to return a partial payment and wanted nothing to do with the vet expences that incured with all the tests he had a pup from his breeding with Pimms X Anja, so I took it because he lived in Serbia and I might get in some trouble there as aposed to if he lived in the states were I could visit him and discuss the problem. Pimms is a big problem because of his Dam, her and that entire background might be problems Pimms is Dam is Mirakle vdRauberhohle whose sire IS Alfa whose sire IS Prinz. You need to take a long look at what your purposing to do. These dogs are in the 4th to 6th generations but their there!!
Von
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Post by von Cosack on Sept 7, 2011 16:23:04 GMT -5
You say theres no Citone in her pedigree yet Prinz is? Prinz is one of the biggest influences in Citones. As for Pimms I know abit about him, his pup Viking Betelges is my dog Viho. He was the counsilation prize when Umar Betelges died. After Slobodan refused to return a partial payment and wanted nothing to do with the vet expences that incured with all the tests he had a pup from his breeding with Pimms X Anja, so I took it because he lived in Serbia and I might get in some trouble there as aposed to if he lived in the states were I could visit him and discuss the problem. Pimms is a big problem because of his Dam, her and that entire background might be problems Pimms is Dam is Mirakle vdRauberhohle whose sire IS Alfa whose sire IS Prinz. You need to take a long look at what your purposing to do. These dogs are in the 4th to 6th generations but their there!! Von I was thinking of Troytol sire who has passed, do you know what of? |
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Post by dreamvalley on Sept 7, 2011 23:04:13 GMT -5
Gail remember I wanted to buy a female from Obi and Galilea litter... OMG!
You helped me with the research and convinced me not to do it. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
Von is there any healthy line in Eastern Europe? It seems Prinz is everywhere... and Gino Gomez... and Fedor del Nasi.
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Post by dobs4ever on Sept 8, 2011 6:55:36 GMT -5
(quote)Wow ! That is sickening ! I dont know much about the Betelges ( or any for that matter ) line, but if they really havent had DCM in their lines and to all of a sudden pop up like this and so young to boot ~~~ just makes you wonder about all of the hard work put into testing, if this pops up out of the blue ~~~ where does this put us?? Feels like going back to square one. Who gets it, why , when...etc etc (qu0te) If you breed long enoughyou will see some of all of it. Why do we suddenly have one litter that a puppy died so young when that was not the norm. I guarantee you if it was the norm everyone would run from that line or was it just htat deadly combination of sire and dam??? Remember Angel's Dark Thunder??? Lived to 10 produced a litter that all died by 2 and that is the litter everyone remembers. He was a beautiful dog with longevity - was it the luck of the draw??? Was it a tainted line or combination of the cross of that sire and dam??? If so what did that dam bring to the table that caused those babies to die so young? Was it just how their genes matched up? There is so much that is speculation and guessing. Even 10 years ago I don't think we were focused on DCM like we are today. I think we are taking the health stool and only focusing on one primary side - what about cancer - I have lost 3 dogs to cancer. What about CAH, bloat which really scares me. If we only focus all our efforts on one dreaded disease will we increase the others in our blindsided rush to eliminate DCM??? I think we need to use caution and common sense approach and not jump off the deep end. I also agree with Dede that there are other factors such as environment and diet that we don't know about but know that they affect things. I don't see us as going back to square one I see it as we never left square one yet. |
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 8, 2011 19:48:01 GMT -5
suzan I agree with the statement that we are focusing a lot on DCM - but it is the boogey man of the hour and it is getting all the press.
I do wonder when entire litters die young if its the genetic cocktail of that particular sire and dam, or could the dam have been exposed to someting that she congenically passed to all the pups in the litter.
Unfortunately we will probably never get the answer to that question.
And the buying public does need to let up a bit on how much they expect any breeder to control when producing dogs.
With regard to Betelges - unfortunately, I am not surprised by this result - I felt it was a very possible result and that the breeding was about as high a risk as you could find with that particular pedigree. DV I was trying to remember who I did that litter analysis for, I still have it and it was very scary.
There is no perfect dog nor any magical match up - but breeders surely can CHOOSE to lower the risk with the dogs they are pairing to gether and choose dogs that have healther ancestors
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Post by dreamvalley on Sept 11, 2011 18:46:00 GMT -5
I was looking at my Asha pedigree again. She has Alfa del Citone and Prinz in her line too... but her great grandfather Balou vom Residenzschloss (Alfa's son) lived 12 years. Her grandmother (Balov's daughter) is still alive and she is 8. She had her cardio done in 2010 and it is normal. Lynz's Cass has Alfa and Prinz in her pedigree too and she is 9 and she is a healthy Doberlady . There is no Doberman pedigree in the world that doesn't have DCM.. unfortunately. |
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What does it say if a dog dies in a pedigree?? Do we really have enough info to totally eliminate a large chunk of the gene pool??? Dr. Meurs said no??? Does she know what she is talking about??? If we find dogs that test negative for all DCM ever will there be enough to keep the gene pool healthy and vibrant or will the radical elimination destroy the breed???
