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Post by Kia on Feb 29, 2012 1:40:06 GMT -5
What do you think is fueling the European Doberman fad?
Is it kinda like the warlock, albino, et al fads and will fade away or is it here to stay?
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Post by Kia on Feb 29, 2012 1:43:35 GMT -5
To reply to my own post (it's 1:40 am and I'm the only person awake! lol) I think the "warlock" fad spawned the Euro fad.
People that want "warlocks" are looking for Dobermans that are oversized, big boned, etc and in comparison to the American standard Doberman the Euros are just that...
Thoughts?
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Post by cathynu on Feb 29, 2012 8:36:05 GMT -5
Kia I'm no expert here - but based upon what you've said - its not good to generalise: Not all the Euro's are oversized. My bitch out of Leo/DLP Copola is a medium sized dog - and as Gail showed us very much within the FCI Standard, which Von further stated wasn't much different to the AKC standard - well apart from the 5deg shoulder angulation difference and a couple of missing teeth that is - yes she has more bone mass that some of the American lines - but that is how it should be in my estimation - she was bred to be a working dog with working lines - not a gazelle like doe who would break her legs if she even tried jumping over a barrier. I personally also like the "short body" look with less angulation - I like a nice front assembly, but in my estimation, some of the NA/SA lines have a "speedboat" hull for a chest - which just doesn't appeal to me - especially what looks to me like an "over exagerated" tuckup - makes that body look way off square and more rechtangular in stead of square, - and I bet if you had to draw the lines on the dog it would probably be pretty close to square - so I guess what I'm trying to say is I prefer the classic look opposed to the NA/SA look ...... A couple of weeks ago I was showing my Euro at IABCA in Marietta, and a young guy was showing his Euro who was out of completely different lines there as well - his dog was way, way OVERSIZED - at 10 mo the dog was 33" tall and weighed 115lbs - so a Maxime look alike ..... only this was a red dog - and can I be quite honest with you, if that puppy was mine, I would be SERIOUSLY worried about him - he is way over standard - my biggest concerns would be about serious muscle and tendon injuries as he ages - hip displacia .... not to mention overtaxing the heart and other key organs ....when form and functionality are changed serious health problems start to creep in - and I think that is a topic we've all discussed a lot on this board before, so I'm not even going to go there ....
My personal opinion ..... if you're looking for a Warlock .... go get a Neopolitan Mastiff or Great Dane .... Dobermann's are MEDIUM SIZE DOGS .... or so the standard says .... And yes, I certainly believe that these "looks" come and go all the time .... however because of breeders like Gail, Dede, Ms Bujok and many others the old tried and tested never goes away, but also never becomes the "flavour of the moment" - and that is good - because in that way the breed according to the standard doesn't go "away" !! Von is SO RIGHT - organizations like the AKC, the Kennel Club, the FCI and whoever else have and continue to allow the destruction of dog breeds because of a "certain look" opposed to allowing the Standard to rule ..... and its all done because of that DARN 800lb gorilla as Gail so aptly puts it .....
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Post by von Cosack on Feb 29, 2012 9:27:19 GMT -5
Morons want a "bigger" dog and look at the show dogs in Europe that are beefed up for exhibitions (its their way to present a dog) but the real reason the Euro dogs have become popular is from the "Smart" Dobermann people who didn't want nor appreciate the N/A breeders soften the original character of the dog.
This burns me up because the people who don't believe that this is a fact are doing more harm to the breed. I've evaluated Dobermanns since 1965 for courage and temperament and the difference between positive and negative outcomes was completely flip flopped beginning in the 80s!! I trained get from the grandsons of Dictator to the sons Cactus Cash and thats just night and day!! The American show breeders NEVER character test their breeding stock, if the dog behaves in a show ring then the temperament is good hahahaha idiots!! The Euro bred dogs need to pass a series of trials before the FCI will register the get from these dogs. Where the akc will register fear biters and total phycotics from byb'ers and cowards from the show breeders who refuse to evaluate them for PP which is a huge part of the breeds Standard. I'm NOT saying ALL breeders but thats the bottom line why the Euro bred dogs have grown more popular and now the Euro byb'ers are earning a buck on the size popularity thing like the Warlock BS!!! Its almost funny how two different factions think their doing a good job with the breed but neither are carrying on in the name of the breeds Standard. The stupid American show breeders think a dog needs to "sharp" to perform as a PP dog and the other jerks (BYB) think that "bigger" is better!!! Up until 1975 or so every Dobermann owner was intersted in a dog that had the ability through training to protect self and family and property so the dogs needed to be bred accordingly. Bottom line is that a Dobermanns mental health has been compromized to the extend of the breed being "needy" and seperation anxiety is a big issue along with passive agressive issues. I miss the Tess Henslers and Mr. Palmers who represented this breed as a working breed bred for protection and companionship. Theres nothing wrong with a Dobermann catching a frisbee but when their standing there "spinning" for it to be thrown theres a problem and if the owner can't see that then thats a problem too!!! A world class frisbee catcher who pees on themselfs when a threat is presented is about as sad as it gets for me. The Dobermanns sure have changed through the years Kia but the biggest change is the owners, 75% of the people that I trained after 1985 should not have owned a Dobermann. Now look at all the stories on the forums over the last 4 years of people who are totally lost when it comes to raising a pup and following through with house training alone!!! The dogs wind up living in crates and are never properly trained and theres the same percentage of Dobermanns being given up today as there was in 1975 and in 75 there was a lot more Dobermanns being bred and sold compared to today. The dogs have to many character flaws today..............so do the owners.
.......sorry for the rant, I'm tired of excuses from breeders and owners theres so many that lend to the problems. Evaluate and Train the dogs, give them a chance to be Dobermanns the Standards Dobermanns, not yours!!! Von
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Post by panama on Feb 29, 2012 10:39:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't call it a "fad". To me, it all depends on what you intend to do with the dog.
Although, there are many that think they want a Euro bred, that will have more drive then most NA bred Dobes, but as Von said, there is a very small % of those people that know what to do with all that drive. Confused for unruly or untrainable, many give up on the dog. If they had only given more thought to the training PRIOR to getting the dog, the dog(s) and their owner(s) would be more successful.
As far as a dog being 'square', that pertains to height / length. Personally, I think the body, in profile, should somewhat resemble a wedge (just in reverse direction of the head). A "marked tuck" is in the standard with the FCI Standard being "noticeably tucked". If a dog's underline is straight... they're too heavy. The extreme tuck looks awful. I believe that is usually caused when the brisket line starts to rise at the 5th or 6th rib apposed to the 9th rib creating that abrupt extreme tuck.
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Post by trinitydobes on Feb 29, 2012 11:29:11 GMT -5
What do you think is fueling the European Doberman fad??
Very good question Kia. I think that for me the first reason I started looking at dogs with euro lines instead of american lines, was because the euro bred dogs looked more like the dogs I had admired from the kennels of the past - vom Ahrtal, Damasyn, Elfred and even the old Kayhill dobermans.
Even as early as the late 70's and early 80's it was quite evident that the American Show line - was becoming more refined, with less body substance. Reputable breeders bred for what would win in the show ring and what wins in the ring is a trend or fad that changes over time - and IMHO the trend to smaller, more refined was not one I wanted nor did I accept.
It was also aparent back in the late 70's and early 80's there there were show lines that had more than their fair share of health issues cropping up - specifically cardio and cancer were the big 2. The second reason I added euro dogs to my lines is that back then they were IMHO healther than many of the american lines. This is not true today - both the american and euro lines have been overpopulated with DCM and Cancer because of in-attention to pedigrees and greed.
The third reason I looked to euro lines was because it was getting harder and harder for me to find an american doberman that was not HYPER, with a too sharp temperament. The euro dogs I was able to see in person, evaluate in person were just more "stable and sound" in temperament. To me they were easier dogs to live with when they had correct, stable, trainable temperament.
I will acknowledge that too many people have imported euro dogs for the sole purpose of marketing puppies that area bigger, healthier, tougher bad ass protective type doberman to the gullable american public - who God help them think BIGGER is ALWAYS Better!
I think the trend to infusing euro bred bloodlines into dobermans in america is a trend that is here to stay - so its no longer a FAD IMHO. Just like anything else to do with breeding there is no one size fits all nor a single silver bullet to FIX any situation. The public must continue to do their research and ferret out the best dog for them. |
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Post by cathynu on Feb 29, 2012 11:42:13 GMT -5
Thank God we have the voices of reason who come and answer our questions in such a logical way - Gail, Von, Nellie, Dede ..... your voices and people like you should be allowed to go speak to EVERY kennel club in the nation .... you should appear on TV on all the BIG NETWORKS at prime-time ..... this topic and many others should be brought to the attention of the public at LARGE - people really need to be educated about dog breeds, why they are bred, why there is a standard - why so many people land with inappropriate breeds in their homes .... oh, the list goes on and on and on ..... why so many dogs of certain breeds land in rescue .... these are all topics VERY CLOSE to my heart ..... sadly there are SO MANY morons out there that will get a breed because they want to eminate a certain look .....
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Post by jdelbove on Feb 29, 2012 12:29:02 GMT -5
Gee Von, so how do you REALLY feel? lolllllll Good post ;-)
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Post by Kia on Feb 29, 2012 12:50:57 GMT -5
Oops maybe I should of rephrased that question! lol
I meant the people that want Euros that are oversized, big boned specifically.
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Post by von Cosack on Feb 29, 2012 18:21:28 GMT -5
What about those people? How stupid are they? Why they want an oversized dog? Are all Americans stuck on sizes? Don't piss me off Kia, one phone call to Grandma and your done girl!!! Von
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Post by DeDe on Mar 1, 2012 9:20:05 GMT -5
I believe that here in the US, with the continual banning or BSL of the bully or mastiff type breeds, we will see MORE oversized dobes. Until, of course, they also become too high on the 'hit list'. Their look (coloring and cropped ears mostly) along with the muscled size of the other breeds seems to have become a status symbol for many here. It breaks my heart every time I see them touted on FB as beautiful...  Trend, or Fab, breeding only serves to destroy the very thing we love so much. Their temperament and health really take a beating. But, as has already been mentioned, the American mentality is one of "BIGGER is BETTER!" Nevermind what an extra 20 pounds means to the dog's health. Nevermind what a DEEP chest means to the dog's health. Nevermind what inactivity means to the dog's health. These people are purchasing a look just to watch it die... |
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Post by von Cosack on Mar 10, 2012 14:56:15 GMT -5
I hate to see breeds being banned but its to much for society to ban certain people from owning dogs. If it could be done the next step would be for ALL dogs bred to conform to their individual standard and remain true to it. Von
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Post by eziekel on May 8, 2012 7:14:44 GMT -5
I have never posted before but I did find this thread very interesting. Too what extent are the judges responsible for the promotion of dogs that have "speed boat fronts", too much rear, exceeding the ideal of the size standard and a general lack of balance? If these exagerated dogs were NOT winning, would the type be continued by the breeders? I personally fall into the Euro "fad" category but can appreciate any well put together dog regardless of orgin and pedigree! I hope as Von, stated the inter-breeding of the N/A and Euro is here to stay with responsible breeding practices but also placement of such dogs. Warlock was never a trend, it was an imposed myth that is still perpetuated by all too many less than "standard" breeders. There also seems to be a tremendous misconception by these same breeders that the FCI standard allows "oversize" dogs to be exhibited. Which again has been a fallacy and only accepted by JQP who wants that type of dog! I have 2 dogs that are of equal size (heighth) one is part Euro and one is partial S/A. The big difference lies in the weight, width and depth and the ability to pull it off successfully. Neither dogs are of "show quality" but as many dobes, are of exceptional companions. I can see a tremendous difference in their desire to please, ability to comprehend and above all the "seriousness" in which they perform and complete a task asked of them.
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Post by von Cosack on May 9, 2012 18:45:10 GMT -5
Your S/A would be out of Luthor decendents, I'd guess? The Euro breedings from either Baron Nike or Gino or Jivago? Those three were the most used dogs in Europe at their time and other than sporting lines are pretty much in all pedigrees. My current dog has all three in his pedigree and other than Gino the others are up close both are grandsires.
What dogs are in your dogs backline? Von
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Post by Shadowlands on May 10, 2012 13:18:43 GMT -5
I personally prefer SOME European dobes simply because I find the N/A's are becoming this fragile and delicate little flower and I don't see that as what a doberman should be. I am very picky as to what European lines I will be choosing from for various reasons. I don't like the rectangle look with no tuck at all, not do I like a bitch to look like a dog. I have been lucky enough to find someone here in Canada that is breeding European dobes and they are stunning. She will be adding S/A lines to her Euro lines, so that will be interesting to see. She and I have very similar ideas of what we think of as an 'ideal' doberman.
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Trend, or Fab, breeding only serves to destroy the very thing we love so much. Their temperament and health really take a beating. But, as has already been mentioned, the American mentality is one of "BIGGER is BETTER!" 
