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Post by von Cosack on Aug 18, 2011 17:39:05 GMT -5
I see what your point is Kim, I don't think the akc will institute anything for the betterment of a breed unless theres a profit to be made. As to the byb ers they have used the akc logo to their advantage for many years but I think they could find their way around that. The folks who buy pups from them aren't interested in showing and hopefully have less an less interest in breeding.
Does Gino's Sire have a ztp? and the Euro are spelt with a double nn dear, DobermanN see hahaha!!!! Von
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Post by HEXE- TINA on Aug 18, 2011 18:29:41 GMT -5
*sigh* lol what i am trying to say is, if maybe it were a requirement to do here like in European countries maybe we would have less BYB out there, i guess, *shrug* but.. who knows. Never mind.. lol forget i said anything I know what you mean Kim  and you are right, that might would stop some of those BYB and Puppy mills |
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 18, 2011 19:40:57 GMT -5
unfortunately I don't think so - because most of the buyers of dobes these days are for pet / companion purposes and those buyers don't even want cropped ears so their dog will "look" like a doberman - and they certainly don't want their dobes to "act" like dobermans.
Its such a battle to get buyers to accept responsiblity for owning and trianing a protection breed in the first place - if more breeders advertised the ZTP protection test achievements I think that would be a negative to most pet / companion buyers - and they would seek out breeders who do not breed for that tested and demonstrated character.
Which may not be a bad thing - its hard weeding out all the people who want to buy a doberman but are not appropriate to own one.
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Post by dreamvalley on Aug 18, 2011 21:36:48 GMT -5
ZTP has nothing to do with protection work. It's more temperament test and it's part of conformation routine.
There are way too many unstable nervious hyper Dobermans in NA. Breeders care much more about their look.
Gail I always surprised when people compare Doberman temperament/working ability and ears cropping. Please don't disappont me....
Most Dobemans have natural ears in Europe and it didn't make them less Dobermans.
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 18, 2011 23:18:09 GMT -5
Dream it does not make them less of a doberman and that is my point exactly - John Q Public wants natural ears because they think it presents a softer less threatening peception of their beloved dog to their friends, family and neighbors. They are choosing the natural ears because they thing it "disguises" what the dogs true nature is.
To me this is a dangerous position to take, this breed was not bred to be more approachable by strangers. - making a doberman look less menacing, and more approachable is not necessarly a good thing and could get both the owner and the dog in trouble. Whether cropped or not, strangers are still approaching a doberman - with alloof, properly protective instincts.
Natural ears do not make them less doberman - but it does help make them look more approachable IMHO to strangers -
With the ZTP they do have to respond with protection instincts with the attack out the blind and they do have to bite and hold the sleeve - to have the general public accept and embrace what this test is testing for - will take a tremendous amount of education. The pet people will scream bloody murder about training attack dogs - we've seen this exact response on several pet forums when they see the training that goes into preparing for this type of test or any type of protection training work. I stand by my earlier statement that the american 'pet/companion" owners will never look on this testing as a good thing - even in the face of trying to educate them why it should be embraced and accepted as good.
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Post by Shadowlands on Aug 19, 2011 6:06:33 GMT -5
I have to agree with Gail on this one. That was an issue I was having with Juno since she has natural ears. People were coming up to her and petting her without permission or without thinking twice. I know this would not have happened if she were cropped.
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Post by HEXE- TINA on Aug 19, 2011 8:58:19 GMT -5
unfortunately I don't think so - because most of the buyers of dobes these days are for pet / companion purposes and those buyers don't even want cropped ears so their dog will "look" like a doberman - and they certainly don't want their dobes to "act" like dobermans. Its such a battle to get buyers to accept responsiblity for owning and trianing a protection breed in the first place - if more breeders advertised the ZTP protection test achievements I think that would be a negative to most pet / companion buyers - and they would seek out breeders who do not breed for that tested and demonstrated character. Which may not be a bad thing - its hard weeding out all the people who want to buy a doberman but are not appropriate to own one. The ZTP= ZUCHTTAUGLICHKEITSPRUEFUNG ( Zucht = breeding, Tauglichkeits = fitness, Pruefung = Trial] has nothing to do with protection GAIl, its a breeding temperament test. The look for the looks and the temprament of the dogs. And here for everybody who wanna know what the ZTP is really about, take some time and read it  www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Articles/ZTP_rules_revised.pdf |
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Post by DeDe on Aug 19, 2011 10:30:49 GMT -5
Tina, I believe she was referring to the fact that there is testing for the protective instincts with grips as well. Yes, the ztp is about the TOTAL dog, conformation included. It checks for the soundness of nerve overall as well.
About 30 min worth of being poked, prodded, measured, having your mouth held open, standing still for the judges, then gaiting around, and around, and around, and around, and.. Then the 'group' exercises with strangers, sudden sights, noises, etc, then an obedience routine, then tied out alone for quite some time with the judge (a stranger) approaching the dog with the owner totally out of sight. Then, AFTER all that, with no breaks, straight into a protection test.
NOT as easy as one would think! That's a LOT of stress on a young dog!!!
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Post by von Cosack on Aug 19, 2011 10:55:52 GMT -5
...........not sure what puppy sales has to do with the sire & dam passing a temperament test. If a video of a test might interest a potential buyer than use it, if you think a buyer would have no interest in seeing then don't invite them to see it. The bottom line here isn't to secure a passing grade for the perspective buyer its to Insure the puppies bred are from dogs that are stable, show character and aren't wimps and cowards. I don't expect people today to want a Dobermann for what the breed was bred for and honestly I gave up the "dream" years ago. I'm trying to educate the breeders that temperament tests are as important and in some situations more important than health tests. How can a breeder choose which tests are more important, unless your among the breeders from the last 30 years who simply aren't interested in dogs with sound minds.
Gail the bite test is a very small part of the ZTP and isn't any more important than standing for the measuring. Facing truths is difficult at times but if you breed and a dog your very high on should fail more than once and proves unworthy for breeding what does a breeder do? Should they put THEIR agenda ahead of whats right for the Breed? Or does the Breed come first? Breeders have had this question in front of them before since the DCM card has come calling. Many of them have their own agendas first. Other than the GSD the Dobermann has been tweeked enough by people who really don't give a damn about the Standard of the Dobermann its been Their Standards that the breed has been subjected too. Guess what...............so far not to good on all levels. Ugly looking things that can work but some have no idea how to "settle" so they need confinement, statue looking outlines with stove pipe necks without an underjaw, who lack stability for work.
Now this is a large generalization but its valid because I've seen all of this over the course of 45 years plus. I was raised with the German dog, bred the American bred ones, owned a Euro dog and trained them all.
If you think its important you'll join in and do it if not you'll make some excuses why you can't do it, whatever, my time is done but I'm reaching out to those of you that are actively involved so that you can have this info to insure your producing sound, healthy dogs who mentally are true to the Standard. Von
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Post by Nellie on Aug 19, 2011 12:12:03 GMT -5
And I couldn't agree more Von!
Since we don't do ADA or UDC functions (our own choice, long story) and we do believe in proving our breeding stock we have taken another road to the same end. We show our breeding stock in UKC conformation to get the judge's opinion of the dog, then we do AKC/UKC obedience or rally titles as well as a title in a protection sport. I prefer SDA as the lower titles, PA and P1, are geared to the 'protection' dog. Once those are done we have what we consider the equivalent of a ztp. A long way around but it gets us there.
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Post by dobs4ever on Aug 19, 2011 14:52:16 GMT -5
Nellie - the UDC equalivant to the ZTP is the breed survey - First is a complete examination of the dog - measure it, talk about the strong and weak points in conformation All health testing must be complete and turned in prior to the test or you have to wait for the official title.. The dog then must complete a couple of test a temperament test then mental stablity of the dog - it is tied out on a line and the handler leaves the area for 5 minutes then returns and the dog must confront an aggressor including follow through with the bite work and engage the helper. There is no blind search or tracking required etc.
I agree we need more people testing but I would love to see Von's idea work where every breeder did their testing - HA based on what I have read no one trust anyone and certainly no other peoples titles. Everything is questioned and how could some who has never done bite work evaluate their dog correctly??
Look at all the hoop la over the WAE and different evaluators reading things differently. The breed survey has not taken off here because it is not the "gold standard" like the ZTP even though it is patterned exactly like the ZTP.
Look at the # of people who say that the ZTP doesn't mean anything either because when people were forced to test prior to breeding all kinds of stuff started happening. I wish we could just get to the place where we accepted different venues and learn that regardless anyone who does anything with their dog learns and also gets a much better picture of that dogs temperament then the coiuch potato.
Each sport seems to try to want to one up everyone else and if you were not the first then your title is junk.
I do think it would help cut out BYB as those who do not do anything with their dogs but breed would have to get up and actually learn something about health, temperament, conformation etc.
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Post by von Cosack on Aug 19, 2011 16:07:27 GMT -5
I like your Style Suzan!!!!Von
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 19, 2011 17:04:56 GMT -5
Suzan Great Post and I could not agree more
and just for clarification to everyone - I was not saying the ZTP was a protection test I do know that it is a breed suitability test requirement - what I was saying was there was a portion of the test - Stranger out the blind - that did test the character of the dog, during which the dog was expected to bite and hold the sleeve.
To me the biggest problem here in the US is finding good clubs and trainers to work with - good dog clubs are few and far between that would help you with training your dog in preparation to taking the test. I surely wish there were more dogs clubs that I could avail my self of, but the only working clubs close are a bit prejudiced against dobes - now if I had a GSD or a Mal - I would be welcomed with open arms.
Suzan the situation with the WAE is a good one to point out how something that should be so simple and straight forward can get messed up and call its validity into question. a sad situation really.
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Post by von Cosack on Aug 19, 2011 18:23:32 GMT -5
Gail you don't have to exact the ZTP, you can take what you need from a ZTP type of an exam and formulate your own as long as theres exercises there to proof the dogs worthiness. Part of what I'm suggesting here is for the breeders to come up with your own personalized exam. You don't need an organizations "ok" or certification because your testing your dogs on your behalf and theirs to pass. You don't need the akc or abc to tell you its ok to use this bitch in a breeding you know shes a worthy dog because you tested her yourself. If your bitch is hips clear you don't need the OFA you can whip out the results in person in private and show it. The same for your stability test, that you established and you perform.
You sit down and gather the info you feel is relavant without being bias in any way. You formulate the exercises and get the numbers of folks you'll need to complete it and you practice with any and all the dogs you can find untill you have it perfected. This would be an outstanding club project instead of sitting around bitching about some stupid cd section that hallys 8 year old bitch can't get hahahaha!!! Get off your asses and do something thats important to the Breed that you represent. Oh by the way I'm NOT writing it out for ya all! Von
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 19, 2011 18:27:28 GMT -5
Excellent Idea Von - I am going to talk to my trainer about doing just that! taking video of the dogs capabilities is easy - so will work on how to do the exercise to simulate the threatening stranger and just video it.
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and you are right, that might would stop some of those BYB and Puppy mills
