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Post by Kia on Dec 16, 2011 20:52:19 GMT -5
I need yalls expertise on this..Okay there is a white doberman breeder that is saying she has had her dogs color coat tested and that they are NOT albino. She is also encouraging other WZ breeders to get this test done so they can say they aren't albino. I've known about this "test" for a while but never looked into it.
I ran up on an ad she had posted for puppies and went to her website just to look and found the results of one of these test on one of her white dogs.
Here it is:
So here's the thing, isn't this test just the results of the color "under" the white/albino coat?
The albino/white gene masks the color of the dog but it doesn't change the genetic makeup (phenotype) of the dog. This dog genetically is a #4 black...that's what this test is showing NOT the appearance or lack of the albino gene.
When I bred my fawn girl to the albino dog 3 years ago (hate to bring this up but its relevant to the topic lol) I did a lot of research on his pedigree and, using the information I got from his other two breeders also, came to the conclusion he was a #4 black masks by the white coat.
I am almost tempted to email her and tell her saying this is a test for albino gene is wrong......
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Post by georgie on Dec 17, 2011 7:06:17 GMT -5
If she is selling puppies to people with this infomation and its not correct then yes. Maybe she doesnt understand that the white masks the colours.
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Post by gemmasmomma on Dec 17, 2011 13:44:02 GMT -5
This states in an asterisk that the test for Black gene "does NOT detect the melanistic mask variant E(m)" so this test does not show if the dog is a E(m)' or WHITE dog with the gene for masking the black gene. It shows the genes that this dog carries in its genetic make up. It is not a test for 'Albinism" it is a DNA test to determine what the dog carries genetically. Therefore It would appear that this test cannot tell you what color the dog is, you must look at the dog yourself to determine what color it is and then it will also tell you what color the dog has in its genes and what it can produce or reproduce. It says right at the bottom that it tells you what variant of colors the dog has genetically but cannot tell you the color of your dog... right there at the bottom of the page of the results. So this dog can throw puppies of black and dilute which would also mean it could throw white/albino dogs if bred to another WZ gene carrying dog, who also carries these genes.
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Post by Kia on Dec 17, 2011 14:32:51 GMT -5
This states in an asterisk that the test for Black gene "does NOT detect the melanistic mask variant E(m)" so this test does not show if the dog is a E(m)' or WHITE dog with the gene for masking the black gene. It shows the genes that this dog carries in its genetic make up. It is not a test for 'Albinism" it is a DNA test to determine what the dog carries genetically. Therefore It would appear that this test cannot tell you what color the dog is, you must look at the dog yourself to determine what color it is and then it will also tell you what color the dog has in its genes and what it can produce or reproduce. It says right at the bottom that it tells you what variant of colors the dog has genetically but cannot tell you the color of your dog... right there at the bottom of the page of the results. So this dog can throw puppies of black and dilute which would also mean it could throw white/albino dogs if bred to another WZ gene carrying dog, who also carries these genes. Bold emphasis mine.
The dog herself is white, so if bred to a WZ factored dog or white dog she will certainly produce whites. There are three "variants" for lack of a better word in the white breedings. There is the whites (albinos), WZ factored which means they have a white parent or grandparent and the rest normal colors (they can still produce whites if bred to another WZ or white dog) and then there's Z-factored. These dogs are not white and don't have a white parent or grandparent (or in some cases GREAT grandparent) but they are listed on the Z-list. I had a blue/rust female that was Z-factored. She was bred to a white male two times 9before I got her) and never produced any white offspring. Upon doing pedigree research I found there were two whites in her pedigree 6 generations back. She would never produce white puppies. The thing most of these breeders, especially the ones that just jumped on the rare white bandwagon is that the whites ARE genetically under the white an accepted color! I gotta go right now....gotta hair appointment...lol
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Post by trinitydobes on Dec 18, 2011 12:53:11 GMT -5
Kia - is the the same breeder who is saying her dogs were coat hair tested from some where and the coat hair came back as blond? now that one did get my attention, if the visible coat color was not white but blond thats another monkey wrench in the whole color discussion
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Post by cathynu on Dec 18, 2011 13:00:02 GMT -5
Following this discussion with great interest .... seeings Lil does carry the dilution gene ..... Gail would you think its good practise knowing a female carries a dilution gene to breed her to a blue dog?? Also, is there a way of finding out whether your dog carries the dilution gene if you don't know?? The reason I ask this: Someone I know bred her blue male to a black female to "see" what she was going to get, and sofar 2 blue males have been born .....
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Post by Kia on Dec 18, 2011 17:50:19 GMT -5
Kia - is the the same breeder who is saying her dogs were coat hair tested from some where and the coat hair came back as blond? now that one did get my attention, if the visible coat color was not white but blond thats another monkey wrench in the whole color discussion Yea I think so Gail. Most whites I've ever seen (all actually) weren't "white" in the truest sense of the word. They were cream colored....IDK.... I'm still on the fence about the albino thing but I do know its not an accepted color and therefore shouldn't be bred for.....
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Post by trinitydobes on Dec 18, 2011 19:04:32 GMT -5
Following this discussion with great interest .... seeings Lil does carry the dilution gene ..... Gail would you think its good practise knowing a female carries a dilution gene to breed her to a blue dog?? Also, is there a way of finding out whether your dog carries the dilution gene if you don't know?? The reason I ask this: Someone I know bred her blue male to a black female to "see" what she was going to get, and sofar 2 blue males have been born ..... Cathy - I think its an individual thing - I have produced a few blues over the years from 2 black parents - I would not have CHOSEN or sought out this dilute gene - but the fact that they carried the gene was not so heavily weighted a factor that woud have me cull them from my breeding program either. I personally would not deliberately seek out breeding dilutes - allopecia is a genetic condition that you as a breeder have no control over - there just is no predicting which dilutes will have good coats and which will end up bald - for me I would rather not have this hanging over my head as a breeder. If you have not read this before - this is a great write up by Cathy Kendrick on coat color genetics located on the Dobequest website dobequest.org/genotype.phpyou can get the coat color tests done here www.healthgene.com/coat-color-test-doberman-pinscher/www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html
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Post by von Cosack on Dec 18, 2011 19:11:48 GMT -5
......read, study, know and digest the breeds Standard and WHY its there!!! The thought of the albino (white) topic is interesting and disappointing at the same time. Theres no reason other than funds to breed these individuals, the same garbage we've gone through when morons preaching "bigger is better" back when the Warlock (Borong) good name began to be abused. Has anyone every seen an albino that had decent conformation let alone terrible? I've never seen ONE! Their all terrible representatives that have the poorest structure along with the obvious faults. to bad we couldn't put all the albino, cream, white, oversized morons and their dogs all together change the name to Roids-Men Dopermanns and ship them out!!! OH thats right! I already did, I always liked the "Clear Coats" the best! In a time were this breed is in enough deep crap to have these factions actively persueing breeding programs is a scarey thing. We just had another "world wide used stud dog" drop dead at 8 yrs. and his backline is in everyones pedigrees too. Sad affairs. Von
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Post by cathynu on Dec 19, 2011 7:14:11 GMT -5
"I personally would not deliberately seek out breeding dilutes - allopecia is a genetic condition that you as a breeder have no control over - there just is no predicting which dilutes will have good coats and which will end up bald - for me I would rather not have this hanging over my head as a breeder"
My exact thoughts .... when someone says they'll do it again if they can sell the puppies .... that really makes me start to wonder!!!
read, study, know and digest the breeds Standard and WHY its there!!! The thought of the albino (white) topic is interesting and disappointing at the same time. Theres no reason other than funds to breed these individuals, the same garbage we've gone through when morons preaching "bigger is better" back when the Warlock (Borong) good name began to be abused. Has anyone every seen an albino that had decent conformation let alone terrible? I've never seen ONE! Their all terrible representatives that have the poorest structure along with the obvious faults. to bad we couldn't put all the albino, cream, white, oversized morons and their dogs
The voice of reason stepping in here again .... Thank you Von ..... The breed standard hasn't been set "just for the fun of it"
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Post by vwolfdobermans on Feb 2, 2012 15:37:42 GMT -5
You are correct, Bad dilute coats is genetic, so is full coats for the life of the dog. I fancy dilutes, but only dilutes from my import lines. Because out of 3 generations from my Horringhauser import dilutes, Ive enjoyed lovely, thick coats, and so have my clients. I'd not have considered dilution had the coats been a problem for me, or clients. As a breeder, you dont purposely breed for genetic issues it is simpley not forthcoming. And I have no problem sterilizing a dog with genetic issues. However if a line is known for quality dilutes for the life of the dog, then I feel everyone should have the right to enjoy that same coat. Nothing rare about it, just a beautiful dilute coat. I have dogs now that are 8-9 yrs old, dilutes I produced, all with coats better then most reds and blacks at that age. But what bothers me the most about with color or lack there of is albinos, as everywhere you look they are everywhere . Ive inquired to many folks in the past two years about dogs local to me, only to find the albinos lurking in my own town. And when you ask these folks about it, they have no clue. The albino breeders didnt tell them what they were buying, they were just buying a dog, most of which are now being passed off from byb as a few dollars. I contacted a guy on puppyfind with a blue puppy to find out her background, he sent me a wz pedigree. When I asked him about it, he had no idea what he had in front of him. In the years, I have prided myself in changing the minds of those folks that would listen to what I experienced with them, and how the general doberman public feels about albinos, their owners and their breeders. And have successfully left bad tastes in folks mouths, that in turn was enough to get them to alter their wz dogs. Yet while they wont any longer talk to me and claim they dont know why they altered a perfectly good dog, they are satisfied they made the right choice. One Wz dog down, many more to go. I am sadly only one person, and can only do so much. It takes all of us to make enough noise to get folks to listen and to make a difference. It takes education, not deflamination to make a difference.
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