Gemma and Saava

[gemmasmomma]

Gemma and Saava this evening... shitty camera.. god this thing sucks... but you get the idea! they are nearly the same size.. .

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[gemmasmomma]

Saava in his favorite chair with my huge 25 lb red tabby cat on the top of the chair behind him... this is a HUGE chair... so he looks little in it.. but it is ginormous... the CAT is 25 lbs!! so you get the idea..

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[gemmasmomma]

Handsome, sweet, calm, amiable, soft gentle and patient.. amazing lad he is! Just such a dapper, dignified dude!

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[cathynu]

Wow he IS a bruiser!!!! But a very HANDSOME ONE!!! He has grown so!! These guys are definitely no longer the small puppies that arrived here on 8/4. Diva, does he also sneak onto the bed to sleep with you??? Lilly will sneak on and cuddle up behind my legs as I lie on my side and then pin my legs down, and I'll wake up hours later with lame legs. Lilly is a real character though and she doesn't let Rex get away with ANYTHING - she's a real little fire cracker and fights back ..... my 2 play VERY ROUGH together!!! They both carry the scars to prove it!!!

Absolutely LOVE YOUR PHOTOS Diva!!!

[gemmasmomma]

Thanx Cathy: Gemma has scarred up Baba already too... He has a pretty significant one on his shoulder and its probably 3" long and 1/4" wide... She is TOO rough and really does take her Alpha Bitch a bit far pretty often. I actually am considering using my E collar on her for a month or so to see if I cannot break her of ripping him a new asshole over nothing 2-4 times a day!
No, Baba and Gemma are not allowed in the 'rest of the house' at night/bed time for us.
Gemma is a really big girl and she launches herself right onto you if you are in bed. It can be dangerous actually because she has no problem landing on your chest, stomach and or face... she hurts when she hits you from launching her self 3' into the air and onto the bed! NO way.... Baba is still in his crate at night as he still has accidents in the house if I am not paying attention and he is in too long. It took me 9 months before I had Gemma out of her crate at night either. We have to keep a baby gate up to our room when she sleeps in the living room. So we just keep them in the kitchen on their beds and Baba in his crate at night till he too is around 8-9 months old.
I also have issues with Gemma at night when she falls asleep and she has these occasional 'hissy fits' at night and attacking my 12 yr old mutt for no apparent reason. She had one on my husband tonight.. I am not sure whats going on with her. She seems to be woken up out of a dead sleep and it seems as if in pain and then she lashes out at something or anyone who is with in distance close enough to lash out at. Its pretty odd and I am quite baffled by it and concerned what this is all about .. its bothering me!
So I keep her in the kitchen on her cozy bed at night (bed time). I simply do not know what these episodes of 'panic? pain? bad dream?" are... it's a conundrum at present and its making me concerned!

[cathynu]

Hi Diva, we have also pretty much had to keep our 2 seperated most of the time, and have a baby gate system in our house which keeps one in one area and the other in another, but they are still able to see each other and socialize albeit through a gate. The reason we've done this is because of how they "play" or as my husband calls it "fight"!! Initially Rex was EXCEEDINGLY jealous of the new puppy, and was VERY VERY rough and mean to her so they were seperated because of that. Eventually it got to Rex becoming very accepting and wanting badly to socialize but Lilly growing up and becoming a young dog with a lot of energy and her taking over and starting to get mean on him .... so once again we keep them seperated most of the time. Thankfully the scarring isn't noticable, although at this stage because they will sometimes get each other on the legs, they do have some hairloss on there. Neither of our dogs are crated at home anymore, although Lilly does still have the odd accident (normally happens when I'm not paying attention), although she's pretty good at sounding the alarm at the door to go out - thank goodness we don't have carpet in the house - so that also aleviates the problems. I read what you have written about your dear Gemma to Dave and he mentioned Delayed Stress Syndrome - we had similar problems with Rex when we initially got him - and what we didn't realise was that in effect he was really a "rescue" because his mother and her litter of pups were rescued by the person we bought Rex from - so there is NO telling what kind of a very early puppyhood Rex had till he went to be with the lady we bought him from .... and then from there to our home, where we have been extremely loving and kind to him. When I think of all the "dastardly" stuff he did to us till he turned roughly 18 mo's old there were some days I think I could have shot him ..... and at one point my husband was actually thinking of putting him out to rescue, only I told him I would NEVER EVER, EVER allow that to happen, and that we needed to rescue Rex ourselves ... which meant WE BOUGHT him, WE had to work with him, and that is what we've done ..... Here I also have to thank Dede for her advice on a "destress" method for Rex. I went out and bought a huge roll of burlap that I have tied knots in and also tied a long rope to and I play tug with him out in "his" back yard - he is very possessive of that yard - so he'll actually try "attack" us out there - but its more like VERY, VERY, VERY rough play ... anyway, Dede explained to me that I needed to play tug, but by having the rope on the tug, the game doesn't get too personal and in my face, and I let it go for as long as I can stand to hang on, and then I reel the tug in with the dog at the end of the rope, lift him up on his collar, and as soon as he spits out the burlap, I tell him good dog, I march him up on the deck, close the gate and go retrieve the tug thing and put it up in the shed which means I've controlled the game - this has HELPED tremendously with his stress to where a lot of his nonsense has pretty much dissappeared!! Lilly on the other hand, is a lot like your Baba .... she is way, way laid back and DOES have an off button. We exercise her by throwing frisbee for her and she'll run all day long for that frisbee!!! We exercise her for roughly 1/2 an hour in the afternoon and that is really all she needs combined with her running out in the yard during the day and running fence races with our neighbour's Weimeraners - they can't see each other because its one of those wooden fences, but they hear and smell each other .... so that actually works our real well - only we have NO GRASS at that side of the fenced in yard, but I guess that's the small price one pays for a happy puppy ;D .... she has been much the same to raise as my Airedales before Rex ... she is a REALLY WELL adjusted pac member, where Rex has always had problems adjusting (eg. we spent a week in Florida in September and POOR Rex lost 12lbs in a week - seperation anxiety!!!) - Lilly didn't lose a lb .... and she was running around on the farm with Rex's breeder's 5 mo Dane puppy and being in charge of a litter of other dobe pups that were her age ....

Diva we were VERY FORTUNATE that the Bujok's are such careful breeders who want to do good for the breed!!! I have looked carefully into Rex's pedigree, and sadly there is A LOT gone wrong there .... his tree only has 3 branches .... tons and tons of in breeding and line breeding done there ..... but then again he was our 1st dog .... once I decided I wanted a female (and I often wonder after my first experience how that was ever possible ) I did a lot of reading into bloodlines and had a good idea of the lines I wanted my bitch to carry .... and then when you let me have the Dura Lex website and I saw what the pedigrees of the Sire and Dam were, I knew this was who I was going to get my girl from - especially after I'd looked at all the photo's on their website and then had a fair amount of written correspondence with Anna, but MORE IMPORTANTLY KNEW that Gail who is such an experienced breeder and yourself had done the research into this line and felt that longevity and a good background was there - believe me, I don't know how long I will have Rex, as I eventually discovered his father had died at age 6 from a heart attack - at this point I am just too affraid to go get an echo test on him ..... when he went to the vets earlier this year they listened to his heart and they said it all sounded fine .... but as I said, I'm just too affraid .... I also WON'T be breeding him because of the shenanigans going on in his pedigree!!

Anyway, trust what I've written here isn't too muddled up and that you can make some sense - I really feel for your situation and trust you are able to find out what is irking your dear Gemma at this stage!!!

We will continue keeping our guys seperate and allow SOME horse play and will only allow them to begin mingling on a regular basis once they are able to agree with each other for longer than a couple of minutes without "getting onto" each other!!!

[von Cosack]

What do you think might happen if they were in the yard together without any human intervention? Von

[gemmasmomma]

Cathy: thanx for the message! It was very clear and concise...
I will say that Gemma and Baba play unsupervised in the yard all day long... they play, chew, chase, tug of war, hide and seek and play really fabulously together... but... Gemma has a 'hair trigger" that has no seeming apparent reason for it going off and when it does, its usually over a toy, or sometimes he is just 'crowding her' and her personal space has been violated and she goes off and she is not content to just 'growl, bark and keep him away' she has to get in pinned sometimes and although its not every day... its several times a week. She does go off on him every day over something but not to the degree that she is just down right 'total bitch'... but she has and she does go to that level with him with some regularity. They spend hours together and right now they are in the yard romping around tearing up a volleyball and chasing Baba around the yard and he plays keep away something from her. She chases him and he loves this game... but sometimes she just gets frustrated with him and 'kicks his ass' for about 10 seconds and it sounds like a major fight with one attacking the other and baba crying 'mercy mercy' and she has to push him just that much to make sure he 'gets it'....
She has always been a really rough player and since we started taking her to the dog park when she was 5 months old, she got her ass kicked a few times till she realized she could 'kick back'... She got nailed by a dog who did not like what she was doing one day out of the blue, she was preoccupied chasing a little dog on the fence, running balls out and barking and having the time of her life when out of the blue a dark colored Greyhound ran in and bit her in the head.. nailed her!!! she totally freaked out, crying very loudly in what sounded like pain, but it seemed he only bumped her.. but when I got her home I saw he had actually bit her and punctured her head with a tooth.. after that incident she became wary of dogs who approached her too quickly and did not like males at all after that... She had some buddies at the dog park who were her favorites and she only liked to play with them. Her favorite game is 'Tug of war" too.. we have been playing Tug with her after watching Micheal Ellis video's about how to train for working dogs and her favorite treat or reward for obedience work was the tug.... we used it all the time. She is a "Tug Junkie"! she lives for the tug game... she does get pissy with Baba if I am playing tug with her or Papa is playing tug with her and he interrupts... that is cause for a serious 'beating" from her... she does NOT want to share playing tug with us and him! Now she wants to play tug with him too, but not when she is playing with either of us!
SO this 'issue' that she has is a weird one... it seems to be motivated by what appears to me to be pain she is in and it happens when she is sleeping... she will be sound asleep and then out of the blue, she will leap up and make this noise like a bark, whine, pissed off sound and then do a rapid success of small bites as as if to fend someone how is hurting her off... So I am not sure if it is a recurring dream? some pain she is in at that moment? some kind of annoyance and its her way of saying 'FUCK YOU, or FUCK OFF".... not sure.. .but I am going to take her tomorrow for a full Thyroid panel again and a test to see if she might have Lyme disease.... Gail sent me something from Dr. Jordan that was really interesting and I am going to look into it.... Its just got me baffled...
Gemma is our Prima Donna around here and of course I cannot bear the thought of anything being neurologically wrong or otherwise... I am with you on the whole heart thing!! Gemma has that DCM issue back there too on one side of her pedigree.... I am not going to entertain those thoughts... but its back there...

[cathynu]

Von can I be quite honest with you: I really don't know, and at this stage am too affraid to even entertain that idea. The reason being we've never allowed them out in the back yard un-supervised. They always go out there under BOTH our supervision - so when the argy-bargy gets too intense we're able to pull them apart. I really don't like the idea of one of them getting so badly hurt that it would require a visit to the vet or even worse one of them break a leg .... our yard has a nasty downhill hollow on one end, and one of Rex's favourite things when we do let them out there is to run her down in there and pin her down on the fence. He is 85lbs and 28" ... she is 59lbs and 24" - so she is still a "light weight" and he runs her down very easily and rolls her and then you see "deer in the headlights" .... and that is when we intervene and seperate. The other reason I won't let them out unsupervised, is the fact that they are also my first multiple dog experience, so I'm really not sure what will happen - call me cautious .... but that is just me!! At present we allow them out on our deck that has a gate we close and allow them to horse play out there - while we remain inside in the diningroom watching - and also are able to pull them apart when he starts to pin her down. Please if you think we're being over protective, let me know what we need to do!!!

[damasyn]

good posts... but I think another thread is in order

[HEXE- TINA]

Diva, i'm concerned and i have no doubt Babaa is a big boy from his breeding, maybe some close up pic's would help as well. take some Pic's of him staying up from every ankle, so we can see him and maybe he isn't to heavy, still think he kind is, because he got a lot of weight in a very short time and i know they are slowing down at his age. How much do you feed him ? Apollo always is "hungry" too, if it were up to him he would eat all day long and he acts like he is starving to death LMAO. Apollo gets 2 cups a day on food. One cup in the am and 1 cup in the afternoon. Aesa gets 3 cups. 1.5 in the am and 1.5 in the afternoon. She weights around 68lbs now, like i mention before Apollo needs to lose 5-6 lbs, he is to heavy with his 91lbs and it wont hurt him to lose those lbs. where do you weight him? Maybe go to a vet and let him weight on their scale ? and like i said take some "stacking/ stayin pic's of him and post them up here

[gemmasmomma]

Tina:
I really appreciate the concern, but its unwarranted... Baba is weighed at the Vets office and has an physical exam when he is weighed....
I should also mention that in the past 54 years... I have had 27 dogs in my life time and most were from puppies. I have had 7 dobermans, 2 litters of doberman puppies, 4 rotties, and 2 litters of Rotties puppies, 6 Neapolitan mastiffs and 2 litter of neapolitan mastiff puppies, 2 golden retrievers, 1 GSD, a half dozen other mutts, a blood hound, a chocolate lab and others I have long forgotten. I have an education in Veterinary medicine from UC Davis, I was a Veterinary technician for over 2 years in my 20's, have been a groomer, and worked in boarding kennels as a teenager.
Raised horses, pigs, dogs, cats, and numerous other creatures in my 5 decades on this planet.
It is not a new and different thing for me to have a large boned puppy who is growing fast and gaining weight rapidly and is fit, and able to do the job he was born to do.
We all had these same discussions with regards to Gemma rose, and to satisfy my own belief in what I saw of her...
I went to the cardiologist specialist in Scottsdale to have her assessed for her size, weight and health, and although all of you concerned Doberman owners were certain she was and is over weight... two local vets, one cardiologist specialist said no she was not, and I knew she was not... Neither is Baba... He is a 6.5 mo old puppy with an appetite to match his energy level. I will never have my dogs as lean as some of you suggest because that is not their makeup and or their anatomy.
For whatever reason, the dogs I have chosen are large, heavy and incredibly athletic... oddly so was I.... maybe its because of my own physiology and knowledge of my own health in spite of the concerns that the media proclaims about 'weight' and being overweight as being 'unhealthy'... a vague and generic term that really suggests one thing when its not that simple of a concept.
I was always a large boned girl who was 'overweight' but I am probably healthier than any of you thin gals, because that is just my make up. I have issues of joints and pain but I have no different issues than thin people my age....
We are all made how we are made and one mans view is one man/womans view and its not a question of right or wrong. It just is what it is. Baba eats the amount of food he needs to eat to satisfy his caloric energy expenditures and perhaps he is just far heavier bone ( since you cannot see him next to your dogs as a comparison) you cannot know how he can weigh what he weighs and Gemma either.
I have a really inexpensive camera and I wish I could take great photos like I see other people take here, but my cheapo camera just does not take great pictures. There is no need or reason why you or anyone should 'worry' about how heavy either of my dogs are. We posted this info for comparison purposes only... Not to argue or debate the issues.
If a young puppy or dog is starving and too thin, that is far more dangerous and should be considered as something worth mentioning...
Baba's growth will slow down now dramatically and he probably will be around 95 lbs at 12 months old... around 10 lbs heavier than Gemma was at the same age, which is typical for a male.... So no worries here girls...
My dogs eat better than most 3rd world countries and probably better than some of you!
I feed them raw real food and fast them one day a week and Gemma often eats now about what Apollo eats when she used to eat twice as much. Baba now eats twice as much as she does 2'x's a day... but that is to be expected for any puppy till they are around 6 mo's of age.

[HEXE- TINA]

Thanks for all the info Diva, but you make me smile also, because i was just going to ask some itty question and you like always write a book
So HOW MUCH do you feed Savaa with every feeding. you said what he needs, but it would be interessting to know hhow much he gets with every feeding I said how much i fed above and yes i know very well not every dog is the same and yes i know some dogs more bulkier then other, i have the difference here at home.
Lol and i only have a cheap camera also
I know that Apollo has to lose weight, because he has rolls when he sits down, means that has to go And nope its not extra skin he has to fill out LMAO

[gemmasmomma]

6 cup's 1'x a day or 1.5-2 lbs of raw meat on raw days... 2-3% of their body weight is the appropriate amount to feed any canine. in evenings, bully sticks or chicken jerky or a bone is given and a 1/2 sliced fresh apple a day, or watermelon as snack, and 1/4 cup of kefir or yogurt, an egg on kibble with chicken broth

[Kia]

Six cups per dog? That sounds like a lot.
My Samson is 65 lbs and gets 2 cups a day, so does Nala who is 50 lbs.

For snacks they get peanut butter stuffed bones...