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Post by cathynu on Nov 14, 2011 15:10:18 GMT -5
I still have frequent correspondence with Anna Bujok of Dura Lex Polonia from whom we bought Lilly. Today I had an e-mail in which she let me know that as of spring 2012, a non-altering law will be passed in Poland making docking and cropping illegal. She let me know that the current litter of Obe Wan Kenobi X Imax expected towards the end of November will be their last and they are not sure when they will decide to have a litter with natural ears and tails..... How sad!!! I really like these people. They are really good breeders who have never tried to make money out of their breeding hobby. Their dogs and the puppies they produce are very important to them, and are taken the best care of. I am so glad I was able to get Lilly from them .... she has turned out great!!!
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 14, 2011 17:15:01 GMT -5
Is this law a determining factor to them breeding Dobermanns? Von
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Post by cathynu on Nov 14, 2011 20:25:30 GMT -5
Von I cannot answer for Anna on your question, but them having bred Imax to Obe before this law takes effect definitely says something. If you look at their website and the litters they've had over the years, they have always only had 1 litter per year, and have skipped some years. This was the first time they have ever had 2 in one year. Also all their dogs are altered which tells you that is their preference!! In her e-mail she mentioned that they hadn't decided when they would have a litter that would have all natural ears and tails
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Post by daynieto on Nov 14, 2011 20:28:52 GMT -5
My friend from Poland told me about it and i couldn't believe it , shocking !
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 14, 2011 20:36:23 GMT -5
I hope I never have to make this decision - and my heart goes out to them.
For those that have gotten used to all natural dobes and actually prefer that image - God Bless you -
I hate to be such a shallow superficial person - what drew me to this breed was its reputation as a guardian and protector and to me the icing on the cake was they looked the part. Change is hard the older you get and if I am being totally honest - I don't know if I would continue to breed if C/D was outlawed here.
If such a state of affairs were to happen here in the US, you can be sure I would be spending many agonizing hours over whether I would continue to breed.
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Post by HEXE- TINA on Nov 14, 2011 22:02:41 GMT -5
I hope I never have to make this decision - and my heart goes out to them. For those that have gotten used to all natural dobes and actually prefer that image - God Bless you - I hate to be such a shallow superficial person - what drew me to this breed was its reputation as a guardian and protector and to me the icing on the cake was they looked the part. Change is hard the older you get and if I am being totally honest - I don't know if I would continue to breed if C/D was outlawed here. If such a state of affairs were to happen here in the US, you can be sure I would be spending many agonizing hours over whether I would continue to breed. I'm with you right there Gail |
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Post by gemmasmomma on Nov 14, 2011 22:17:50 GMT -5
Cathy: Thanx for that info! I sent some photos of Saava to her not long ago, maybe two weeks or so and they mentioned nothing about this! So when did they find out?
That is thoroughly distressing to me as well! I do not like the uncropped and undocked look of a Dobermann, it looks like a hound and if I wanted a hound/coonhound/black and tan hound/bloodhound I would get one... but I wanted a Dobermann and not a hound. I also do not want my dogs with dewclaws either and that issue is a big one to me as well! The breed IS what it is born with, but it does not look the same at all and in my view it is no longer a dobermann with the tail and the ears... its a great big velcro hound. Not the same!
Anna and her husband have done great things with this breed and I am thrilled to have one of their puppies and one with such great potential and pedigree and a little 2 joint nubbin tail and long show cropped ears with a beautiful curve in them because I do not like the American version of the Long show crop, it looks ridiculous in my view... another of my personal reasons for having the Dobermanns that I have with the appearance that she and he have. Having to decide if I was going to breed or not if the same laws were passed here, would be a tough choice. I would choose to continue because I know that the breed is the breed and cropped or not cropped or docked or not docked is not WHY I want to breed them. I would be sorely disappointed in not be able to crop or dock, but I would still love the breed and I would find a way over time to appreciate them as 'We created' them before we 'modified' them to the look they have now; a cropped and docked breed.
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Post by cathynu on Nov 14, 2011 23:18:22 GMT -5
Diva I am not sure when this law was passed, as they decided to breed Imax to Obe once they heard this law would be in effect in the Spring, and the pups are due late November. They had been wanting to breed her to Obe next spring, but once they heard they wouldn't be able to alter the pups they just went ahead and did the mating - she said it was a huge decision to make because of the fact that they only do the one litter per year because of all the time spent gettings "things right" - which is what I like about these guys - they don't spare the horses on anything dog related - they go about their business in the correct manner.
My personal opinion on docking and cropping on a Doberman is: Although the dog is born with a long tail and hound like ears, it has also always been an altered dog .... so why go change that up now??? Quite frankly humankind is once again trying to "fix" the wrong thing!!! I'm with Gail on this one .... I would be hard pressed to breed a Dobe if I couldn't alter those ears and take off the long cup handle tail that is probably very dangerous in close encounters and as for the dewclaws - well that goes without saying - I don't like those at all, and besides the dog can hurt itself or get hung up on them because if they're not properly cared for they become long and curled around!! I have only had Dobermans in my home since February of 2010 and I'll never forget on our drive down to Tifton GA going to get Rex from his breeder saying to Dave I didn't think I could EVER LOVE a dog that looked like an attack dog - that I wanted one with a docked tail, but I wanted those natural ears .... and now if you had to tell me I was getting the au-naturale, I wouldn't be interested. I think the cropped ears give them SUCH CHARACTER. I love the way those ears move - They make me think of radar bowls when they hear a sound and the whole ear turns around - and I also love it when my boy pulls his ears back and they look like wingnuts, or when Lilly runs and the ears flop around because the leather is still busy thickening up. I also adore her little nubbin tail that wags back and forth like crazy - but its actually the whole bum that swings from side to side - very thankful it isn't a long tail swiping things off my coffee tables or worse off the diningroom table!!
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Post by trinitydobes on Nov 15, 2011 19:04:29 GMT -5
Susie, you are right - the dog is still a doberman inside no matter what it looks like on the outside - but I try and explain my feelings like this to other people.
Its kind of like wanting a convertible corvette - cherry red- the midlife crisis car of my dreams - if my only choice was a vanilla sedan with a corvette engine, it just would not flp the same switch as a corvette that looked like a vette - part of why I want a corvette is the IMAGE and how I feel sitting in THAT particular car - it gives me the big "O" even before I turn the key lol - so for me owning, living with, and gazing upon a C/D doberman gives me a similar 'rush" and tingly feeling inside.
Sitting in a sedan is just not the same thing at all *LOL*
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Post by cathynu on Nov 15, 2011 20:11:03 GMT -5
Oh nice Gail, I love your explanation!!!  |
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Post by dobs4ever on Nov 21, 2011 9:53:34 GMT -5
Another country falling to the AR agenda - When will breed clubs step up and take a stand??? Breed clubs not the government should make the decision to protect their standards. So far the DPCA has taken a firm stand for cropped and docked and supporting the standard.
It is more about freedom of choice than cropping and docking to me. I resent to my very toes that I chose this breed BECAUSE it met my ideal of what a dog should be - working, short hair and cropped an docked.
I hate tails wagging and knocking things off. I cringe at the thought of accidently shutting a tail in a car door. How painful How unnecessary. If I had wanted a floppy earred breed I would have chosen one. Dobermans are all about the LOOK OF EAGLES.
There is not more noble look - it truly takes your breath away and I agree Gail a vanilla sedan just turns me cold.
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 21, 2011 10:22:09 GMT -5
My opinion is to the point and very clear on this subject. I prefer a cropped dog but I have owned and co-owned natural eared dogs. I want the dogs docked for security reasons alone other than getting the snap sting from a shake off.
Heres the real deal for me. Anyone breeding Dobermanns who would consider NOT breeding them because of a cosmetic "flaw" needs to get out of breeding now. Something as minor as a cropping and docking has that much influence on you tells me your breeding for the money not the breed. The crop & dock eliminating will certainly eliminate alot of shallow assed people who BUY this breed for the "look" so sales WILL go DOWN no doubt about it. Theres so many more important issues for a Real breeder to contend with that just the thought of "leaving" the breed over this BS makes me sick. Its the character and temperament thats first, then a healthy dog second then the conformation of the dog third. Where is there an issue with conformation when a tail is present or a full ear lies flat??? Now I'll stand and fight for the right to crop & dock but for all who would leave the breed if cropping & docking is discontinued...........................Get Lost Now, we don't need weak minded, self promoting, idiots who are two faced in saying how they want to better a breed but can't stay over a natural eared or natural tailed dog. Sales Sales Sales and yes it will drop sales dramaticly and those phoney people will be gone, and with any stoke of luck the breed might return to a dog that "everyone" Can't own. Because its a special dog with special needs from special people who will train in OB and PP and the dog will be a ONE family dog for its life. This is NOT a designer breed and theres so many who should NOT be owners that its ridiculous. Von
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Post by dobs4ever on Nov 21, 2011 11:24:37 GMT -5
Von I have not hears anyone say that they would get out of breeding except the folks in Poland and not sure even they said that. But as breeders we are true to the standard as originally presented. Does Herr Dobermann not have the right to set his standard??? Do we as breeders not have the obligation to follow it???
I also fear if we change for a softer look temperaments which are already in trouble will only drop further - softer look - softer temperament.
I also feel that many want the softer look to hide the fact it is a Doberman I think this is trying to mislead the public by misrepresentation the breed. JMHO and I am sticking to it.
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Post by von Cosack on Nov 21, 2011 12:40:30 GMT -5
I've heard alot of breeders and a few fairly well known say they would question their exsistance as breeders!! So I say bye bye!!
If anyone can't see the picture without a certain frame then to me their blinded by an imagine, not reality. I'm not speaking about the woman in Poland or South Jersey I'm simply stating my opinion on people who would turn their backs because of cosmetics. I don't buy the softer look softer temperaments analorgy, the breeds been soft for many years now the crop & dock didn't "hold" their original character together so why would it now. I'm tired of all the phonies breeding and selling to weak people who haven't been told that they MUST train these dogs with a pro and evaluate them for PP training. Those are the steps that give the dogs a chance at a normal life it gives them balance and it affords the owners and the breeders important information as to what kind of dogs their producing. To many phonies out here, this is NOT the breed to put jammies and coats and refer to them as their babies and all that BS thats afforded to "mini & toy poodles" we don't need those weak people owning a Dobermann, sorry but thats my opinion and I've watched this hurtfull change over the past 35 years I've been involved for 50 years now. I don't care if anyway repects me or not. I have my opinion and its based on alot more experiences and involvement then most people. Von
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Post by dobs4ever on Nov 23, 2011 14:32:21 GMT -5
Von why all the hostility  Everyone hear I am sure pretty much agrees with your assessment on what has happened to the world for those who chase Championships only. There is so much more to these dogs. That is why UDC was formed for those of us who wanted to work -testing and maintaining a better temperament more in line with the original purpose. Talk to the people who breed and have never gotten a title in anything - They are as much a problem as those who only want a pretty face and those who want to make them foo foo dogs.. Talk to the albino breeders see how much they help the breed. But this thread is about what has happened in Poland - another country caving in to pressure - we need to find out where that pressure is really coming from and why they are only listenting to one side and changing our breed standard. Regardless of how anyone feels it starts with respect for the standard - if we throw it out the window then all else will soon follow. The standard BTW includes, conformation, temperament, size, head shape, ears, etc. Who wants a butt ugly working dog? Who wants a beautiful dog that can't work??? There are many who care just as much as you do and we are breeder It is up to the breeders to lead the way and protect the standard. It is the breeders who will determine the future of this breed and it starts for standing up for the standard as written and maintaining that standard with our last breath. Right now we are behind the 8 ball because we dropped the ball when we only looked for the next pretty face but we have to pull together to correct it.. But with each chink in the armor and with each piece of the standard we loose it all becomes at risk. |
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Everyone hear I am sure pretty much agrees with your assessment on what has happened to the world for those who chase Championships only. There is so much more to these dogs. That is why UDC was formed for those of us who wanted to work -testing and maintaining a better temperament more in line with the original purpose.