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Post by breesmom on Aug 30, 2011 7:54:34 GMT -5
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Post by prettyfeetsmom on Aug 30, 2011 9:59:15 GMT -5
You're right Sharon that is very interesting, thanks for sharing.  |
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 30, 2011 11:06:03 GMT -5
This is a great article and I try and read any thing that Driscoll publishes - she is thinking outside the main stream vet/med box. the paragraph below should be read and absorbed. Generally DCM is attributed to genetic causes - with certain families being predominant carriers or affected with the genetic "perfect storm" that allows this disease to manifest. But... if Driscols hypothosis is correct -then the preponderance and growth of DCM cases may have to be laid at the feet of an environmental cause... Vaccination.
Driscolls time line with the development of the Parvo Vaccines tracks very closely to the date that DCM cases started demonstrating a more rapid increase in the number of reported / diagnosed cases. Two very interesting reads that have more parallels than you would think at first glance.
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Post by gunslinger2006 on Aug 31, 2011 0:32:58 GMT -5
Years back I had a old vet tell me that he didn't like to give dogs antibiotics unless it was absolutely necessary. He told me that with antibiotics the dogs natural immune system didn't have to work, so the dog's natural immune system would weaken.
After reading the hyper-link, it seems to sound about like the same thing. Adding the idea that we are helping to spread the very viruses we are trying to avoid not to mention making them super viruses and maybe causing other problems with vacines (DCM).
My question is, do we continue to vaccinate or do we take a shot (pardon the pun) and don't?
I'm all for not putting things into my dogs that they don't need. They ingest enough off the wall stuff on their own and don't need any help from me.
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Post by trinitydobes on Aug 31, 2011 11:10:01 GMT -5
I am for judicious vaccination - I am not going to quit vaccinating my puppies - especially for Parvo - its a horrible death and too many die of it that get it.
I am not sure what the answer is - on the older dogs - I titer instead of just vaccinate, and that seems to have done well for my adult dogs so far.
As a breeder who is active on many breeder and repro lists - I've have read the heart wrenching stories of entire litters of puppies being lost to parvo - the treatment is expensive and the survival rate is less than 50% of those pups who contract this disease. Where as pups who have been vaccinated do not contract the disease or do not get deathy ill.
For me its not even a question - I will vaccinate my pups for parvo. I think that Dr Driscoll is very good at "scare tactics" and she does get out attention and get us thinking about issues. I think the bigger problem is not the Parvo vaccine per say but that the vaccine was grown on and developed from tissue from a cat with Feline Parvo - so the medium that the vaccine was grown in is more the culprit to me.
As I said - an older dog that has their 1 year series and then 3 years later when vacs are due again I wil titer before vaccination. My puppies, I will vaccinate because I don't want to be the cause of their dieing and me having to make that call to a new owner who is already in love with their puppy before even bringing it home.
Thats my postion
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Post by gemmasmomma on Aug 31, 2011 14:22:04 GMT -5
Gail; puppies who are vaccinated DO get parvo... I am one example of one who did and I have known of many cases of fully puppy vaccinated puppies who got parvo anyway....
I just posted an extremely compelling argument against vaccinating entirely... ENTIRELY!
the Veterinarian is Dr. Patricia Jordon and she has COMPELLING evidence and so do many other Vets out there against Vaccinations for anyone.... including dogs... the facts, the science and the MYTHS that surround our knowledge of vaccinations hold true for human beings as well. I would NEVER EVER get a FLU vaccine... and I know people who do and who 'swear' them, but they are proven to be the cause of the virulent flu's we have out there today.
I am just posting this info for those who like ME are and have been highly suspect of this whole idea/notion of vaccination and I am bowing out of the rat race taht follows this line of thought. I am joining Natural Rearing Breeders Association and going full tilt here... this is the sign I needed to validate what I have believed now for about a decade or more.
Just posted the video in a separate thread... MUST view... Must evaluate and read her book too.... far too much evidence to discount and or discredit or disqualify this from our depository of knowlege about our dogs! and especially our breed!
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Post by Shadowlands on Aug 31, 2011 14:30:17 GMT -5
As I understand this article, there are 3 strains of Parvo: the original, and two mutated strains, the last of which can be contracted by cats. This article does state that those that have had the Parvo vaccine can get Parco, but not the original strain, but the mutated one.
however, I have to agree with Gail on this one, until they come up with a much better vaccine or program to irradicate this disease, all pups will be vaccinated by me also. It is not worth the risk of losing a pup or mutliple pups to this disease, regardless of how or why it came to be.
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Post by 4Dobies on Aug 31, 2011 15:30:59 GMT -5
We will also vaccinate, it just sounds like your dammed if you do or don't.
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Post by gemmasmomma on Aug 31, 2011 15:45:24 GMT -5
watch the video I posted.... it may change your mind... it has changed mind entirely!
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 1, 2011 19:58:43 GMT -5
Diva, will look up the Natural Rearing Breeders - but here is my reply on the other thread and something you need to think about - what will your death rate be for the first 3 generations? and you have to remember you are starting out with a breed that is known for its lack of robust immune system. I wish you luck and please keep us updated on how you implement this into your breeding program so that we can learn what it means.
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The problem with no vaccinations EVER is that we must be prepared for the fall out of dogs who die who did not for what ever reason receive enough immunity from the mother and who were able to establish a natural robust self immunity.
We can establish pack health and a return to natuaral sustained immunity by the 4th or 5th generation of a breeding program by breeding the survivors to the survivors, and accepting that survival of the fittest or natural selection will be the driving factor of our breeding programs til we get out to the 4th and 5th generation.
I myself will not live long enough to effect this in my breeding program - and I am not willing to let natural selection decide what dogs will live and what will die my last 10 to 20 years of breeding dogs. Because trust me - the death rate the first, second and third year on this path will have a very high rate of death as a matter of course.
This path will be for those younger than me and that have another 25 to 30 years to contribute.
Once you become responsible for a buyers happiness - and you deliberately CHOOSE to not vaccinate and expose your puppies to the risk of contracting distemper and parvo and dieing early because of this choice - you have to be made of different stock than me to willlingly take this risk and know you will have to make many phone calls and break many purchasers hearts because their pups were not one of the ones born with enough natural immunity and died because they were not protected.
What makes this so hard is that we, breeders and owners have no true test nor ability to determine the level of immunity any dog has - until he gets sick. Until we have a test that can tell me which pups in the litter got enough natural immunity and which did not - I will vaccinate my puppies. and then booster again 1 year later. Will there be the occasional pup die because even with this protocol he did not have enough protection? Yes - but there will be far fewer deaths than when we don't vaccinate at all.
Its a tough issue and even tougher to decide what is the best to do with these babies we bring into the world.
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 2, 2011 0:41:17 GMT -5
Gail: watch the video, read the Doctors comments and articles and I know you will change your mind.. I just posted that video in "Save the Doperman forum" on Facebook and two people responded robustly that they NEVER vaccinate and that Vaccinations in other countries are looked down upon too. One was Ayman and another was a gal from Australia.. I also had two others comment on their agreement with this and a human naturopath I spoke to today has been preaching this for years...
THe mortality rate is very very low for parvo puppies in UN vaccinated, raw fed, totally naturally reared breeders and kennels... THe results are pretty substantial. I have now sworn off... sworn off of all chemicals and all vaccinations and all commercially produced dog foods, other than Orijen or Acana. I am 100% behind this science and see that it stands the test of time.
This data is just too overwhelming to overlook and be pushed around by these 'scare tactics' of the 'Parvo statistics"... I had a parvo puppy, and I saved her myself...
I read postings from readers on this womans website who have also sworn off of vaccines and one woman with Afghans said she has two puppies contract parvo in a litter and both survived and got through it in less than a day... I believe that often puppies simply need to experience that and they are stronger for it. This issue will not go away with continued vaccinations using god knows what goes into those and this issue is SUPER well documented and researched and it is being supported by the likes of Dr. Pitcairn, Dr. Marty both are quite famous and this woman and many other Holistic, naturopathic Veterinarians and believers.... Not just in Humans but now its become common discussion in the animal world. I would not vaccinate my grand kids.. and they are far more precious to me than any pet... as hard as that is to imagine. My grand kids were not vaccinated... and wont be... they are super healthy and had no ear infections, colds, flu's, just simple tummy upsets and a minor sniffle now and again adn they are 3 and 5 years old. I think if a human child with god knows what lineage and inherited weaknesses can survive.. I think a litter of puppies can too... I will be cleaning my yard of all the feces that has been dropped by Saava and Gemma, because after they were vaccinated they are 'shedding' that live or killed parvo vaccine in their stools and that is where the parvo is picked up... it comes from teh vaccines... so if its never introduced into your environment.. its never going to be picked up and passed around.
Going into the vets office is often the most dangerous place to go, because sick and dying diseased and weak immune system animals go in there and carry their cells and drop whatever they have on teh floor where my puppy lays and picks it up on his feet and on his body and I pick it up on my feet...
no no no... no more....
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 2, 2011 15:51:01 GMT -5
Gail: watch the video, read the Doctors comments and articles and I know you will change your mind.. I watched the video - and Dr. Jordan explains very well the theory and the problems with the vaccines and what health risks are becausae of them - but what this video does not say - is what is her recommendation for an alternative approach to protect our puppies and what percentage of effectiveness is her natural non vaccination approach? I just posted that video in "Save the Doperman forum" on Facebook and two people responded robustly that they NEVER vaccinate and that Vaccinations in other countries are looked down upon too. One was Ayman and another was a gal from Australia.. I also had two others comment on their agreement with this and a human naturopath I spoke to today has been preaching this for years... THe mortality rate is very very low for parvo puppies in UN vaccinated, raw fed, totally naturally reared breeders and kennels... I need proof of this - what are the numbers - how many natural breeders are there? how many generations have they been NOT vaccinating and how many puppies have they lost? How many puppies have contracted Parvo and suffered life long effects of the ravages of this disease? and how many have been exposed and showed no signs? I want numbers - not just assertions. What do they consider a low mortality rate - what if Saava is the ONE puppy in your program that contributes to the very low mortality rate? what is an acceptable amount of death to equal LOW Mortality Rate? THe results are pretty substantial. What do you call substantial - 10 litters, 25? 50? 100? what numbers are they publishing? I have now sworn off... sworn off of all chemicals and all vaccinations and all commercially produced dog foods, other than Orijen or Acana. I am 100% behind this science and see that it stands the test of time. You have less to loose at this point than I if this new direction does not work for you. What are you going to recoomend or demand of your puppy buyers with regard to vaccinations - what about those that want to show, compete, or have a service or therapy dog? What type of health guarantee will you give? will you replace a puppy who leaves you unvaccinated and then dies of Parvo?This data is just too overwhelming to overlook and be pushed around by these 'scare tactics' of the 'Parvo statistics"... I had a parvo puppy, and I saved her myself... How old was this puppy - did she have any vaccinations at all and if so how many? You've saved one puppy with parvo and I can give you emails of a dozen breeders who have lost entire litters - a hundred puppies - so which carries more weight in my world the one puppy you successfully saved or the 100 puppies that other experienced breeders lost?I read postings from readers on this womans website who have also sworn off of vaccines and one woman with Afghans said she has two puppies contract parvo in a litter and both survived and got through it in less than a day... I believe that often puppies simply need to experience that and they are stronger for it. If this is true Susie why do so many, Overwhelmingly die??? of this disease? why don't more pups pull through and get well with no side effects if this is true - I am sorry but anectdotally there is far more evidence that Parvo is a disease that the Majority of puppies die from Parvo - these are not scare tactics this is fact - now I am willing to believe that the Parvo vaccine has other health risks associated with it - like the association with DCM, but a dead puppy won't get DCM either This issue will not go away with continued vaccinations using god knows what goes into those and this issue is SUPER well documented and researched and it is being supported by the likes of Dr. Pitcairn, Dr. Marty both are quite famous and this woman and many other Holistic, naturopathic Veterinarians and believers.... Not just in Humans but now its become common discussion in the animal world. I would not vaccinate my grand kids.. and they are far more precious to me than any pet... as hard as that is to imagine. My grand kids were not vaccinated... and wont be... they are super healthy and had no ear infections, colds, flu's, just simple tummy upsets and a minor sniffle now and again adn they are 3 and 5 years old. I think if a human child with god knows what lineage and inherited weaknesses can survive.. I think a litter of puppies can too... I will be cleaning my yard of all the feces that has been dropped by Saava and Gemma, because after they were vaccinated they are 'shedding' that live or killed parvo vaccine in their stools and that is where the parvo is picked up... it comes from teh vaccines... so if its never introduced into your environment.. its never going to be picked up and passed around.[ b] But Puppies leave the breeder and go to their new homes into environments beyond your control - how are you going to handle that when you breed?[/b][/color]Going into the vets office is often the most dangerous place to go, because sick and dying diseased and weak immune system animals go in there and carry their cells and drop whatever they have on teh floor where my puppy lays and picks it up on his feet and on his body and I pick it up on my feet... no no no... no more ....So does that mean you will be raising all natural dobes? you won't be taking them to the vet for docking, dew claws and ear crops? [/quote] |
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Post by gemmasmomma on Sept 2, 2011 16:21:50 GMT -5
what am I going to do? I am going to model my feeding, supplementation, breeding and all practices on a homeopathic, naturopathic NON chemical dog breeding model. I am going to follow in the footsteps of those who are already doing this and have been doing it for what sounds like well over 20 years... so if you are really interested and you are not afraid to find out how these breeders/ VETERINARIANS/ Breeders are doing it? then we can both learn alot and pass along what we learn. I am going to subscribe to the ideology that says "A healthy immune system from the inside out" is all that is necessary to have healthy puppies. I believe that many things we think we know.... we simply dont know and this is one area where I am brand new too.... but it sets well with Me... I am not afraid of the bogey man... "Parvo".... I am not afraid of Rabies... a recent article just debunked that 'false disease' too... I am not afraid of Distemper.... either.... these are not 'great white sharks' in teh water waiting to devour un vaccinated puppies, but that is exactly what the medical profession wants you to fear. I am sorry Gail... but I do not believe that you personally know of entire litters of healthy purebred puppies that died of parvo.... or hundreds of cases personally? You personally know of these first hand? I mean its not 'second hand' information or 'case studies' taht you have read about? Because I would go back to those case studies and I would look into them further and I am gonna bet you that they are fabricated.... embellished upon, and scare tactics... My Vet just told me about 'a whole rash of new cases of parvo".... I am going to put her to the test on that statement. I am going to ask for that information first hand, not second hand, not through the grape vine as it where.. but who are they? where are they? what breed where they? what was the health of the parents? what was the health of the litter when it succumbed to this 'rash of new outbreaks" and so on.. I want details from now on, because I am not bying the hype.... its wholesale 'fear mongering" and without those fear mongering bits of data... I am gonna wager that this entire war on 'Parvo" like the 'war on drugs' would be over in about a year.. if we would all stop buying into this and start feeding our dogs a natural diet, start supplementing wiht 'enzymes and pro biotics' and stopped feeding them crap food and started entirely devoting ourselves to making sure these dogs were healthy from the inside out.... and then see what happens. This same old circular argument that 'What if you get a litter and they ALL DIE of parvo?" just isnt going to make the grade as far as evidence... what if I get hit by a truck and die.. what if I get cancer, what if I run out of money, what if I cannot afford to feed them good food, what if. what if, what if? What am I going to do with the puppies that I breed and then sell? I am going to have this so well researched and so well mapped out that when I come to that bridge? I will KNOW how to cross it... what about taking them to the Vet for Ear croppings? I am not going to crop them.. the owners or buyers of them will decide to crop or not to crop.... what about the tails? I do them myself.. I did them with my neo's and I will do them with my Dobies.. what about the dewclaws? will do those myself too... Was a vet Tech and I am trained, know how to suture and how to do Dew claws and tails and even an Episiotomy if needs be.... I will raise my puppies on natural raw food from day one... they will get raw enzyme supplements and colostrum supplements and goats milk... NO KIBBLE... NO GRAIN and NO COMMERCIALLY CANNED OR PACKAGED foods... they will eat raw... from day one... these babies will be as healthy as nature intends them to be and if I get a case of 'gastro intenstinal' distress? I will use Parvaid, Oatmeal water and Holistic and homeopathic treatments for and put them on SubQ fluids if needs be or syringe hydrate them till it runs its course... IF it happens at all. I was a Vet Tech and went to UC Davis for Pre Vet Med in the 70's and all that wealth of information is on my 'hard drive' IN my brain... I am more than capable of handling any and all issues related to the health and well being of my animals naturally and have for years... I am ONLY now beginning to see how important it it so utilize all that is out there in the world of information regarding health via natural means! I am going to subscribe to the Homeopathic Veterinarian forum, inquire and ask Questions of this Doctor and her cronies and find out just what it takes and what alternatives are out there and what they do and how they do it! You can too! Its out there if you want to find out.... I know you know how to research and I know that you will get your answers to these questions and more! Will you stop giving vaccinations? I dont know... you might.... you might get all those questions and more answered and start going out there like this Vet is and start heralding your new found conversion! Its possible! |
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Post by trinitydobes on Sept 2, 2011 19:52:37 GMT -5
Susie - I am on several repro and breeding email lists - it has been on those lists that I have read first hand accounts, from the breeders themselves that have posted their experience with loosing entire litters of puppies.
you find this new direction and departure from the status quo a much easier leap of faith than I do - but that does not mean I am not going to study the terrain and do my research and see what path I feel the most comfortable taking as I go forward with breeding. I will most definitely share what I learn, and hope you will do the same - its going to be very heavy lifting mentally to do this research - and if we can then make it easier for others to read and absorb that is an awesome goal
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Post by maggiet on Sept 11, 2011 22:20:05 GMT -5
Wait a minute...cardio existed long before parvo. In fact five of the "7 sires" credited with building the breed in the USA (was that the 30's or 40's?) died prematurely of Heart Attacks/sudden death.
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