Post by trinitydobes on Aug 15, 2011 20:18:20 GMT -5
Post Whelping Breeding Questions Posted Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:03 pm by Monkey Madness
After reading about Gails litter I have a few questions. Some of them may sound really stupid to you but they are genuine:)
1) What are the tell tale signs a bitch is in labour?
2) Do you have to do anything specific during labour for pain relief etc?
3) when the first pup is born does it come out in a sack? does it have an umbilical cord? if so what happens to these things?
4) how long is there normally between pups being born?
5) When do you know to take the dog to the vet? if a pup is stuck, emergency etc?
6) How doyou know the last pup is out?
7) is there an after borth/placenta? How does that come out and what is done with it?
8) After all the pups are born do you have to do anything special with them? rub them down/clean them or does the bitch do these things?
thats all for now thanks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:45 pm by DeDe
Lynz,
MANY of these questions will vary depending on the bitch. Some bitches handle things better than others, some are faster, some are more attentive, etc. I will try to answer some of your questions as they relate to an average virgin bitch in my experience...
1) A bitch will normally go into labor once her temp drops below 99 degrees farenheit within 12-24 hours. Most virgin bitches will nest heavily during this time (rip the towels, blankets, pace in circles, etc) then will also feel they need to go outside to potty from the pressure inside.
2) You do NOT want to give the bitch any type of pain meds during labor as this will also affect the pups inside! No, no meds are normally given during labor.
3) MOST pups are born in a birth sac. this is ripped open and ingested by the bitch. When she does this, she will also sever the umbilical. Be careful though as some bitches are overly aggressive with the cords and cause umbilical hernias to the pups which later need medical attention.
4&5) There can be anywhere between 5 minutes and 4 hours between pups. You can generally tell if your bitch is going into 'distress' with alot of hard labor and no pup. IF you suspect your bitch is going into distress, consult a vet or an experienced breeder ASAP! Nobody knows your bitch better than you though.
6) This is a toughie. I generally palpate my bitch after several pups are born to feel for additional pups inside. It's a learned technique to know WHAT you are feeling for. Generally, once I believe my bitch to be done, I will give her an oxytocin shot about 12 hours afterwards to induce additional labor to help 'clean her out' with retained afterbirths or any retained pups. Again, I am always looking for any signs of distress on her part.
7) The afterbirth generally will follow each pup and again is ingested by the bitch. This is not always the case, and you will not always be able to see each one leave her body. Some bitches are just too quick and tidy for you to see them all. That's why I give the shot to help clean her out.
8) As each pup is born, I allow the bitch to tend to the sac and umbilical while I tend to the face. I use a clean towel to wipe off the face and clean any mucus membrane from the mouth. I will then turn the puppy upside down and rub vigorously to stimulate lung function. This is not always necessary, but I do it anyway to make sure the air passage is fully clear.
I hope these answers help.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:16 pm by Monkey Madness
thank you very much Dede i didnt know all of this.
so when the bitch severs the cord do you have to clamp it like a newborn?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:44 am by DeDe
Sometimes this is necessary if the bitch gets too aggressive with it, yes. Normally we use dental floss or thread and tie it tightly, then keep a close eye on the bitch to keep her for trying to chew it off. You want some length left on the umbilical. They will dry up and fall off like a scab after a day or two. Some breeders also will dip the remaining umbilical in betadine or iodine. This will generally deter the bitch from continuing to mess with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:06 am by Shadowlands
Now I have heard of some breeders only allowing their bitches a few afterbirths to eat and then try and take away the rest, as too many can make them sick. I thought this odd since canines have been successfully whelping without our help for thousands of years. What is your take on this DeDe?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:03 pm by DeDe
If she wants them, she can have them! Ingestion of the afterbirths, just as in nursing the newborns, helps stimulate the hormones into dropping in the milk for all the needy little mouths! If, perchance, the bitch later vomits up anything, that's fine with me. It served it's purpose at the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:44 pm by Monkey Madness
thanks for the replies. I have often wondered how the whole birth thing works.
Not for the faint hearted thats for sure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:20 pm by TrinityDobes
DeDe thanks for getting answers to Lynz - I was just too wiped out yesterday to pull more than simple thoughts together.
1) What are the tell tale signs a bitch is in labour?
In my experience the girls start out panting and have an elevated respiration - prolonged - they will want to nest like DeDe said and will make a mess of the carefully washed and layered bedding in the whelping box - but this is what the bitches would do to make a "dip' "hole" to lay and whelp in. OR like what happened to me the bitch if not watched carefully will drag her huge pregnant belly under the deck - which only has a 8 or 9 inch clearance, and then get turned around and get STUCK and not be able to get back out from under the damn deck!!! mom had to run and get a garden trowel and dig more dirt away and I still was panicked at pulling her cause her HUGE belly kept getting stuck! - finally dug enough dirt away that the belly could slip out -and then it was off to have a bath cause she had red muddy clay from the tip of her nose all over her titties, to the tip of her tail!!! and she did this in like 2 or 3 min of being let outside to pee!
2) Do you have to do anything specific during labour for pain relief etc?
I don't give meds but I am always in the whelping box, and continue to give body massage and use the "tellington touch" head massages to keep them calm if possible and let the labor come - maiden bitches can get worried and stressed cause they have no clue what the heck is going on.
3) A - when the first pup is born does it come out in a sack?
The dogs uterous is Y shaped and each puppy is in his own amnion sack (clear thin sack that floats in the Placenta sack) its the placenta that is attached to the uterine wall - Ideally the placenta opens allowing teh amnion to pass out of the placenta and into the birth canal - as long as the puppy is enclosed in the amnion and the unbilical cord is still attached to the placenta there is still blood flow and oxygen. when the puppy emerges from the vulva - you actually see a little buble and the head - or sometimes a tail - if a tail you want to grab hold and gently pull with the contractions - you don't want a breech birth to get sucked back up inside and have the amnion break cuase then the puppy can aspirate the amniotic fluid - you want to break the amnion quickly but I don't pull the puppy out you don't want the unbilical to detach prematurely. sometimes the umbilical will pull the placenta with it sometimes the placenta is left behind - you do want to "try" and count the placentas if you can so you are sure they are all expelled when whelping is done. I take a suction bulb and suction out the mouth, and I listen to the pup if he is gurgly I will aslo swing te pup upside down to get any aspirated fluid out of the lungs. I usually let the bitch lick and clean the puppy up - I place a hemostat clamp about 1/2 inch from the tummy and let the bitch chew the umbilical - I do cut and trim trim it to the hemostat. I take a towel and vigerously rub the puppy dry - make him cry a bit and use those lungs - then I put him on the nipple so he can get that all important collustrum. Some pups are not immediately ready to nurse - this may mean he needs to expel the'
miconium - or gestation poop - so I will offer the pups rear end to the bitch for her to lick and stimulate the passing of this poop - then the pup will usually start to nurse.
3) B does it have an umbilical cord?
the unbilical cord is attached to the puppy on the tummy thru the amnion to the placenta Here is a photo of a puppy still in the amnionic sack - placenta still not passed
Here is a photo of the puppy, clear amnionic sack removed but still attached to the placenta via the umbilical cord
3) C if so what happens to these things?
I let my girls eat as many placentas as they want - these are total protein and a perfect food for the bitch to digest and use for energy and nourishment those first couple of days - some bitches you have to drag out the box to pee and poop, if they have eaten the placentas - I do not worry overly much as I know they have natures food to see them through.
4) how long is there normally between pups being born?
I've had as short as 5 min and as long as 8 hours - because of the #8 pup being stuck with Jaz her last pup born was 4:30 pm and then once the pup was unstuck- the next puppy was 1:50 am thats over 9 hours later - we were lucky - I won't ever wait that long again - its not unusual for a bitch with a big litter to take a break - and there be no apparent contractions for 4 - 6 hours - however - if you to for 1 hour with contractions and do not produce a puppy - you need to go to the vets. There are things you can do to try and unstuck pups, but this should only be attempted by experienced breeders or the vet
.
5) When do you know to take the dog to the vet? if a pup is stuck, emergency etc?
See above - if you are having contractions and do not produce a puppy within an hour - then off to the vet. It is important to ensure you are feeding the bitch the right ratio of calcium/phosphorous - if the calcium or glucose or oxytocin gets out of whack you can have uterin inertia - where labor just stops, not taking a break, its stopped - and you need to give either calcium, oxytocin or glucose to get things started again. You can also feather the vulva or cervix to encourage contractions to start again.
6) How doyou know the last pup is out?
I usually do an xray so I know a min number of pups to expect - but if you read about Jaz even the vets office took like 3 xrays before they could be sure that Jaz was empty. Sonogram is hard to count pups - an xray is the best - unless its like Jaz and there were so many so close together you just could not count them all - but I did know when she stopped at 7 she was not done
7) is there an after borth/placenta? How does that come out and what is done with it?
See above - you can try and limit - but bitches are sneaky about getting them before you do lol
8) After all the pups are born do you have to do anything special with them? rub them down/clean them or does the bitch do these things?
See above -the main thing is to keep a close watch to be sure that everyone is nursing and that every one is strong - not weak and fading - with a large litter ou can need to rotate pups every hour - so that each puppy is eating no longer than every 2 hours. You also need to be sure that the bitch does not accidently step on the pups, nor lay on the pups - new bitches jsut don't know and can lay right down on a puppy and smother it. Then again with a large litter you always want to check their little bellies to make sure they are full and taught - you may need to supplement them with nutrical and / or goats milk to ensure they are getting enough nourishment.
See easy as pie lol - if anyone is thinking of breeding, my advice is to find a mentor that will let you come and help whelp a few litters - does not matter the breed really (though not a toy breed would be best) and get some hands on observation and experience before you start out on your own - and then hopefully for your first litter your mentor will come to you to help you with your litter. Experience is the difference between a good outcome and a wreck.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:32 am by Apollo
Thanks Gail and DeDe that was perfect, i might show that to someone who thinks breeding and welping is easy and everything is going on its own and you don't need nothing to do.
Maybe we can add a few thinsg what you have to when you breed and how to take care of a bred, pregnant Bitch and what you would need
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:21 pm by Daynieto
WOW! Very easy indeed !! not for me thanks .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:45 pm by Monkey Madness
Daynieto wrote:
WOW! Very easy indeed !! not for me either thanks .
After reading about Gails litter I have a few questions. Some of them may sound really stupid to you but they are genuine:)
1) What are the tell tale signs a bitch is in labour?
2) Do you have to do anything specific during labour for pain relief etc?
3) when the first pup is born does it come out in a sack? does it have an umbilical cord? if so what happens to these things?
4) how long is there normally between pups being born?
5) When do you know to take the dog to the vet? if a pup is stuck, emergency etc?
6) How doyou know the last pup is out?
7) is there an after borth/placenta? How does that come out and what is done with it?
8) After all the pups are born do you have to do anything special with them? rub them down/clean them or does the bitch do these things?
thats all for now thanks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:45 pm by DeDe
Lynz,
MANY of these questions will vary depending on the bitch. Some bitches handle things better than others, some are faster, some are more attentive, etc. I will try to answer some of your questions as they relate to an average virgin bitch in my experience...
1) A bitch will normally go into labor once her temp drops below 99 degrees farenheit within 12-24 hours. Most virgin bitches will nest heavily during this time (rip the towels, blankets, pace in circles, etc) then will also feel they need to go outside to potty from the pressure inside.
2) You do NOT want to give the bitch any type of pain meds during labor as this will also affect the pups inside! No, no meds are normally given during labor.
3) MOST pups are born in a birth sac. this is ripped open and ingested by the bitch. When she does this, she will also sever the umbilical. Be careful though as some bitches are overly aggressive with the cords and cause umbilical hernias to the pups which later need medical attention.
4&5) There can be anywhere between 5 minutes and 4 hours between pups. You can generally tell if your bitch is going into 'distress' with alot of hard labor and no pup. IF you suspect your bitch is going into distress, consult a vet or an experienced breeder ASAP! Nobody knows your bitch better than you though.
6) This is a toughie. I generally palpate my bitch after several pups are born to feel for additional pups inside. It's a learned technique to know WHAT you are feeling for. Generally, once I believe my bitch to be done, I will give her an oxytocin shot about 12 hours afterwards to induce additional labor to help 'clean her out' with retained afterbirths or any retained pups. Again, I am always looking for any signs of distress on her part.
7) The afterbirth generally will follow each pup and again is ingested by the bitch. This is not always the case, and you will not always be able to see each one leave her body. Some bitches are just too quick and tidy for you to see them all. That's why I give the shot to help clean her out.
8) As each pup is born, I allow the bitch to tend to the sac and umbilical while I tend to the face. I use a clean towel to wipe off the face and clean any mucus membrane from the mouth. I will then turn the puppy upside down and rub vigorously to stimulate lung function. This is not always necessary, but I do it anyway to make sure the air passage is fully clear.
I hope these answers help.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:16 pm by Monkey Madness
thank you very much Dede i didnt know all of this.
so when the bitch severs the cord do you have to clamp it like a newborn?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:44 am by DeDe
Sometimes this is necessary if the bitch gets too aggressive with it, yes. Normally we use dental floss or thread and tie it tightly, then keep a close eye on the bitch to keep her for trying to chew it off. You want some length left on the umbilical. They will dry up and fall off like a scab after a day or two. Some breeders also will dip the remaining umbilical in betadine or iodine. This will generally deter the bitch from continuing to mess with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:06 am by Shadowlands
Now I have heard of some breeders only allowing their bitches a few afterbirths to eat and then try and take away the rest, as too many can make them sick. I thought this odd since canines have been successfully whelping without our help for thousands of years. What is your take on this DeDe?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:03 pm by DeDe
If she wants them, she can have them! Ingestion of the afterbirths, just as in nursing the newborns, helps stimulate the hormones into dropping in the milk for all the needy little mouths! If, perchance, the bitch later vomits up anything, that's fine with me. It served it's purpose at the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:44 pm by Monkey Madness
thanks for the replies. I have often wondered how the whole birth thing works.
Not for the faint hearted thats for sure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:20 pm by TrinityDobes
DeDe thanks for getting answers to Lynz - I was just too wiped out yesterday to pull more than simple thoughts together.
1) What are the tell tale signs a bitch is in labour?
In my experience the girls start out panting and have an elevated respiration - prolonged - they will want to nest like DeDe said and will make a mess of the carefully washed and layered bedding in the whelping box - but this is what the bitches would do to make a "dip' "hole" to lay and whelp in. OR like what happened to me the bitch if not watched carefully will drag her huge pregnant belly under the deck - which only has a 8 or 9 inch clearance, and then get turned around and get STUCK and not be able to get back out from under the damn deck!!! mom had to run and get a garden trowel and dig more dirt away and I still was panicked at pulling her cause her HUGE belly kept getting stuck! - finally dug enough dirt away that the belly could slip out -and then it was off to have a bath cause she had red muddy clay from the tip of her nose all over her titties, to the tip of her tail!!! and she did this in like 2 or 3 min of being let outside to pee!
2) Do you have to do anything specific during labour for pain relief etc?
I don't give meds but I am always in the whelping box, and continue to give body massage and use the "tellington touch" head massages to keep them calm if possible and let the labor come - maiden bitches can get worried and stressed cause they have no clue what the heck is going on.
3) A - when the first pup is born does it come out in a sack?
The dogs uterous is Y shaped and each puppy is in his own amnion sack (clear thin sack that floats in the Placenta sack) its the placenta that is attached to the uterine wall - Ideally the placenta opens allowing teh amnion to pass out of the placenta and into the birth canal - as long as the puppy is enclosed in the amnion and the unbilical cord is still attached to the placenta there is still blood flow and oxygen. when the puppy emerges from the vulva - you actually see a little buble and the head - or sometimes a tail - if a tail you want to grab hold and gently pull with the contractions - you don't want a breech birth to get sucked back up inside and have the amnion break cuase then the puppy can aspirate the amniotic fluid - you want to break the amnion quickly but I don't pull the puppy out you don't want the unbilical to detach prematurely. sometimes the umbilical will pull the placenta with it sometimes the placenta is left behind - you do want to "try" and count the placentas if you can so you are sure they are all expelled when whelping is done. I take a suction bulb and suction out the mouth, and I listen to the pup if he is gurgly I will aslo swing te pup upside down to get any aspirated fluid out of the lungs. I usually let the bitch lick and clean the puppy up - I place a hemostat clamp about 1/2 inch from the tummy and let the bitch chew the umbilical - I do cut and trim trim it to the hemostat. I take a towel and vigerously rub the puppy dry - make him cry a bit and use those lungs - then I put him on the nipple so he can get that all important collustrum. Some pups are not immediately ready to nurse - this may mean he needs to expel the'
miconium - or gestation poop - so I will offer the pups rear end to the bitch for her to lick and stimulate the passing of this poop - then the pup will usually start to nurse.
3) B does it have an umbilical cord?
the unbilical cord is attached to the puppy on the tummy thru the amnion to the placenta Here is a photo of a puppy still in the amnionic sack - placenta still not passed
Here is a photo of the puppy, clear amnionic sack removed but still attached to the placenta via the umbilical cord
3) C if so what happens to these things?
I let my girls eat as many placentas as they want - these are total protein and a perfect food for the bitch to digest and use for energy and nourishment those first couple of days - some bitches you have to drag out the box to pee and poop, if they have eaten the placentas - I do not worry overly much as I know they have natures food to see them through.
4) how long is there normally between pups being born?
I've had as short as 5 min and as long as 8 hours - because of the #8 pup being stuck with Jaz her last pup born was 4:30 pm and then once the pup was unstuck- the next puppy was 1:50 am thats over 9 hours later - we were lucky - I won't ever wait that long again - its not unusual for a bitch with a big litter to take a break - and there be no apparent contractions for 4 - 6 hours - however - if you to for 1 hour with contractions and do not produce a puppy - you need to go to the vets. There are things you can do to try and unstuck pups, but this should only be attempted by experienced breeders or the vet
.
5) When do you know to take the dog to the vet? if a pup is stuck, emergency etc?
See above - if you are having contractions and do not produce a puppy within an hour - then off to the vet. It is important to ensure you are feeding the bitch the right ratio of calcium/phosphorous - if the calcium or glucose or oxytocin gets out of whack you can have uterin inertia - where labor just stops, not taking a break, its stopped - and you need to give either calcium, oxytocin or glucose to get things started again. You can also feather the vulva or cervix to encourage contractions to start again.
6) How doyou know the last pup is out?
I usually do an xray so I know a min number of pups to expect - but if you read about Jaz even the vets office took like 3 xrays before they could be sure that Jaz was empty. Sonogram is hard to count pups - an xray is the best - unless its like Jaz and there were so many so close together you just could not count them all - but I did know when she stopped at 7 she was not done
7) is there an after borth/placenta? How does that come out and what is done with it?
See above - you can try and limit - but bitches are sneaky about getting them before you do lol
8) After all the pups are born do you have to do anything special with them? rub them down/clean them or does the bitch do these things?
See above -the main thing is to keep a close watch to be sure that everyone is nursing and that every one is strong - not weak and fading - with a large litter ou can need to rotate pups every hour - so that each puppy is eating no longer than every 2 hours. You also need to be sure that the bitch does not accidently step on the pups, nor lay on the pups - new bitches jsut don't know and can lay right down on a puppy and smother it. Then again with a large litter you always want to check their little bellies to make sure they are full and taught - you may need to supplement them with nutrical and / or goats milk to ensure they are getting enough nourishment.
See easy as pie lol - if anyone is thinking of breeding, my advice is to find a mentor that will let you come and help whelp a few litters - does not matter the breed really (though not a toy breed would be best) and get some hands on observation and experience before you start out on your own - and then hopefully for your first litter your mentor will come to you to help you with your litter. Experience is the difference between a good outcome and a wreck.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:32 am by Apollo
Thanks Gail and DeDe that was perfect, i might show that to someone who thinks breeding and welping is easy and everything is going on its own and you don't need nothing to do.
Maybe we can add a few thinsg what you have to when you breed and how to take care of a bred, pregnant Bitch and what you would need
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:21 pm by Daynieto
TrinityDobes wrote: See easy as pie lol - if anyone is thinking of breeding, my advice is to find a mentor that will let you come and help whelp a few litters - does not matter the breed really (though not a toy breed would be best) and get some hands on observation and experience before you start out on your own - and then hopefully for your first litter your mentor will come to you to help you with your litter. Experience is the difference between a good outcome and a wreck.
WOW! Very easy indeed !! not for me thanks .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:45 pm by Monkey Madness
Daynieto wrote:
TrinityDobes wrote: See easy as pie lol - if anyone is thinking of breeding, my advice is to find a mentor that will let you come and help whelp a few litters - does not matter the breed really (though not a toy breed would be best) and get some hands on observation and experience before you start out on your own - and then hopefully for your first litter your mentor will come to you to help you with your litter. Experience is the difference between a good outcome and a wreck.
WOW! Very easy indeed !! not for me either thanks .
