Post by trinitydobes on Aug 15, 2011 18:44:20 GMT -5
A question for the breeders...How do you pick a puppy? Posted Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:16 pm by TrinityDobes
The quote below is from a thread about GemmaRose's mom's puppy - and a very good question was asked that I think deserved its own thread -
Cathy, this is a good question and I can only speak or myself when I picked Lestat and Raven - but I hope others will answer in this thread as well.
#1 - Healthy pedigree with low risk for DCM and Cancer was the major priority for me which is why I Leased the bitch I did and chose the complimenting sire I did. I bred this litter for a prospective next generation stud dog and for a prospective brood bitch.
#2 - Because I have a previous generation here and an established stud dog and 2 alpha bitches - it was most important to me to choose puppies whose basic personality would integrate in with the pack and not be a "fur nazi" constantly looking to climb the mountain and stick in his/her flag as "king/queen of the hill" - as I get older -harmony in my pack is paramount for me, that was not a consideration at all when choosing the last generation 7 to 8 years ago, but it was definitely a consideration this time around.
#3 - Phenotype - I am an admitted head hunter- I have a certain head that I like and I got it with both Raven and Lestat. I also like a more cobby body - For me I was looking for complementary phenotypes that would "marry" well with my existing lines and phenotype -
For Dennsov43 - she needs a compementary phenotype - Gemma is a "full figured dober-gal" and if bred to too light framed or substance male that paring would not be IMHO a good choice for success. two extremes are not complementary - so having 2 more euro body types would be an appropriate choice. With a heavier frame having good bone and well conformed feet are important - thats why I've remarked on the Blue Males pasters and flatter feet - the feet will not improve nor change much with maturity. Each Breeder has a "vision" for the pups they will want to produce - and some breeders have no vision *lol* which is why we have so many varieties
But Very good Question- thanks for asking
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:05 am by GemmasMommaI would like to add a 'ditto' to what Gail stated as what she looks for in a Dobie puppy....
1. I looked for a pedigree that had the best compliment of phenotype and genetic diversity and I compared that pedigree to the pedigree of Gemma Rose (Since the male I am choosing will be bred to her and to her progeny)
2. I am a head hunter too... I have a very specific head type that I look for and I know it when I see it....
3. conformation of body and rear angulation. Nothing I dislike more in any working breed other than mastiff's is under angulated. I want angulation in the rear for movement. I like a dog that has a little more angulation than some, but not overly done...
4. I look for bone.. massive bone and massive structure. I do not like thin waif, slender looking Dobies... just not my preference and I like "Doggy bitches" hence my choice of Gemma.. she is very doggy and many people think she is overly so, but she was exactly what I was looking for! she could have more underjaw for my taste, but her profile and planes and her blunt wedge head with a nice stop is what I look for!
5. added into all of this is the temperament... I do not want a super driven dog as I have one already and realize that this level of drive that Gemma has is alot of work, and I prefer a less driven dog than she is... so my choice this go around was to ask the breeder which of the puppies is the most reserved and least driven of the available boys and I will chose one over the other if the male I happen to like the most happens to be the most driven, then I will chose the lesser driven one even though I like the other better... I want a dog that will not be driving me nutz but is simply spectacular to look at!
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:40 pm by Sisko
Excellent info, thanks.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:04 pm by Cathynu
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
Post detailsSelect: Re: A question for the breeders...How do you pick a puppy?
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:04 pm by Monkey Madness
Cathynu wrote:
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
all mine have the above in there pedigree
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:29 pm by TrinityDobesCathy its so great to see a prospective buyer doing their research, and increasing their knowledge .... BEFORE purchasing !!! please keep us posted and share your journey - I think this is very good information for others to see the thought that you are putting into it and the journey you are making! Thanks so much for joing us here and sharing your experiences.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:54 pm by Daynieto
Can someone explain what does under angulated means ? it has to do with the croup not been well align to the sacral bone ? a retired doberman breeder here in Mexico saw a photo of Peggy Sue and he mentioned the croup been a little lower than the sacral bone , i was like WHAT ! i didn't know anything about it, can someone enlighten me please ?
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:49 am by Apollo
And you think that will change with a female pup, HAHAHAHAHAHA
Females are evil and she will run the house in no time and since she is a euro bitch, you better buckle up for that bumpy right
Post detailsSelect: Re: A question for the breeders...How do you pick a puppy?
Posted Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:49 pm by Cathynu
Hiehie yes, Apollo, I realise this poor family is probably in for a VERY rough ride for the next year or so .... but I suppose the one who is going to put up with the most is poor old Rex .... and as the saying goes .... what goes around, comes around .... to say the least: we had a rather rough ride with him ..... he was and still is adrenalin city .... and I guess this "bitch" is going to be the same .... Hopefully a lot of that angst can be taken out in our fenced in back yard .... where grass struggles to grow because of the "rhino" hoofs running all over
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:43 pm by Dobs4ever
The correct term for "underangulated" is straight in the rear. The back legs should form a 90% angle from the hip down to the knee and the knee down to the foot. That 90% angle gives more reach and power to the back end.
If the dogs legs are more or less straight down when stacked that dog is straight in the rear.
Gosh for not being a head breed seems we all like a nice head - I know I hate a snippy snout or the collie look with little stop. I guess I have not give up up yet on the ideal - I try to weigh the entire picture - I want they perfect dog that can go from conformation to the protection field and not miss a step. So based on the sad condition of temperaments today - I probably tend to lean toward the over the top temperament.
It is a lot easier to calm a dog down that to continueally be trying to hype them up for competition. Then I hope like heck tha the temperament matches with the best puppy conformations wise. Form follows function so don't want to be too far off if it can be helped.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:57 pm by Cathynu
"It is a lot easier to calm a dog down that to continueally be trying to hype them up for competition" - I love this ovservation .... I was at a Handlers class this past Monday night - Rex is a bred in America of Euro Imports .... and very busy ..... He gets bored very easily and starts to move around in the "ring" when we have to stand waiting and waiting and waiting .... I was accused that my dog is "disruptive" ..... he also won't just stand "dead" he looks around and is very alert .....
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:03 pm by Daynieto
Thank you Suzan for answering my question .
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:59 pm by Apollo
LOL that wouldbe Aesa too
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:21 am by Dobs4ever
You are welcome and sorry I have had problems getting on and staying on here.
For the disruptive - (they can shove it)!!! A Doberman temperament is alert - that is ALERT - always on - so what I do outside the ring is I have a tuggy toy and I have to engage quietly to keep the behaving. If I stand there too long with Shrock He will get right in my face and bark - Like hey let's get this show moving.
For my girls I like to teach them to spin and twist - back up etc. All things you can do waiting to show - the use the back up in the ring to release stress. I nveer ask a dog to stand stacked unless the judge is going down the line. Mine won't do it. They are like hey lets go go go.
For the boys it is easier to use a tuggy and I don't teach them to spin at all.
Try that and see if you are a little LESS DISRUPTIVE. For gosh sakes it is a dog show they are not statues. ROFLOL
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:08 am by GemmasMomma
same here with Gemma... she did not like the whole "beauty queen" routine.. she lives for the tug toys and I could not use them in the ring.. had to use bait and she was and is not necessarily food motivated for long, whereas a tug? always gets her attention and keeps it.. she will tug till she drops and so far I drop way before she does... way...
so keeping her calm is very very challenging. She will turn, spin, back up and whine, also sit or lay down without prompting and trying to get her into a nice calm, alert perky pose... really tough.. she is sulky, moody, hangs her head and tucks her tail in the ring. She managed to finish in both IABCA and UKC, but it was work and I had to have a tug outside the ring that I could distract her with much like the 'exhibition teams' in Europe do.. I would have a tug toy and move around the ring so she could see me... then when she was under inspection, I would move out of line of sight... My husband finished her and I got her first 4 BOB's and BOS' and group wins with much smiling, encouragement and happy voices and talking about the tug toy in the ring.
It was a full time job to get her to be 'calm' and "happy" in the ring. She is a machine when it comes to working, her BH routine and a tug toy.. that is the stuff she lives for!
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:39 am by Penkeepe
Use a wash cloth. Teach your dog to play with it like a tug. You can pull it out during 'down time' in the ring to relieve the pressure, then just stuff it back in your pocket. I've gotten strange looks doing this but, hey it works!! I make sure the dog knows I have it, let them see me put it in my pocket, then you can tap your pocket to remind them it is there
The quote below is from a thread about GemmaRose's mom's puppy - and a very good question was asked that I think deserved its own thread -
swiftK9s wrote:
They are all adorable! I would have a hard time if I was just picking on cuteness factor...lol, but he is going to be your foundation breeding stock, yes? A question for the breeders here.. do you pick out a pup on just his conformation alone, or do you pick the pup that will balance out your bitches weaknesses? Like, if Gemma had bad feet, but a great head, would you look for a pup with great feet, and on OK head? Or do you try to strenghten her already great features to keep that going in your line?
They are all adorable! I would have a hard time if I was just picking on cuteness factor...lol, but he is going to be your foundation breeding stock, yes? A question for the breeders here.. do you pick out a pup on just his conformation alone, or do you pick the pup that will balance out your bitches weaknesses? Like, if Gemma had bad feet, but a great head, would you look for a pup with great feet, and on OK head? Or do you try to strenghten her already great features to keep that going in your line?
Cathy, this is a good question and I can only speak or myself when I picked Lestat and Raven - but I hope others will answer in this thread as well.
#1 - Healthy pedigree with low risk for DCM and Cancer was the major priority for me which is why I Leased the bitch I did and chose the complimenting sire I did. I bred this litter for a prospective next generation stud dog and for a prospective brood bitch.
#2 - Because I have a previous generation here and an established stud dog and 2 alpha bitches - it was most important to me to choose puppies whose basic personality would integrate in with the pack and not be a "fur nazi" constantly looking to climb the mountain and stick in his/her flag as "king/queen of the hill" - as I get older -harmony in my pack is paramount for me, that was not a consideration at all when choosing the last generation 7 to 8 years ago, but it was definitely a consideration this time around.
#3 - Phenotype - I am an admitted head hunter- I have a certain head that I like and I got it with both Raven and Lestat. I also like a more cobby body - For me I was looking for complementary phenotypes that would "marry" well with my existing lines and phenotype -
For Dennsov43 - she needs a compementary phenotype - Gemma is a "full figured dober-gal" and if bred to too light framed or substance male that paring would not be IMHO a good choice for success. two extremes are not complementary - so having 2 more euro body types would be an appropriate choice. With a heavier frame having good bone and well conformed feet are important - thats why I've remarked on the Blue Males pasters and flatter feet - the feet will not improve nor change much with maturity. Each Breeder has a "vision" for the pups they will want to produce - and some breeders have no vision *lol* which is why we have so many varieties
But Very good Question- thanks for asking
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:05 am by GemmasMommaI would like to add a 'ditto' to what Gail stated as what she looks for in a Dobie puppy....
1. I looked for a pedigree that had the best compliment of phenotype and genetic diversity and I compared that pedigree to the pedigree of Gemma Rose (Since the male I am choosing will be bred to her and to her progeny)
2. I am a head hunter too... I have a very specific head type that I look for and I know it when I see it....
3. conformation of body and rear angulation. Nothing I dislike more in any working breed other than mastiff's is under angulated. I want angulation in the rear for movement. I like a dog that has a little more angulation than some, but not overly done...
4. I look for bone.. massive bone and massive structure. I do not like thin waif, slender looking Dobies... just not my preference and I like "Doggy bitches" hence my choice of Gemma.. she is very doggy and many people think she is overly so, but she was exactly what I was looking for! she could have more underjaw for my taste, but her profile and planes and her blunt wedge head with a nice stop is what I look for!
5. added into all of this is the temperament... I do not want a super driven dog as I have one already and realize that this level of drive that Gemma has is alot of work, and I prefer a less driven dog than she is... so my choice this go around was to ask the breeder which of the puppies is the most reserved and least driven of the available boys and I will chose one over the other if the male I happen to like the most happens to be the most driven, then I will chose the lesser driven one even though I like the other better... I want a dog that will not be driving me nutz but is simply spectacular to look at!
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:40 pm by Sisko
Excellent info, thanks.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:04 pm by Cathynu
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
Post detailsSelect: Re: A question for the breeders...How do you pick a puppy?
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:04 pm by Monkey Madness
Cathynu wrote:
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
all mine have the above in there pedigree
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:29 pm by TrinityDobesCathy its so great to see a prospective buyer doing their research, and increasing their knowledge .... BEFORE purchasing !!! please keep us posted and share your journey - I think this is very good information for others to see the thought that you are putting into it and the journey you are making! Thanks so much for joing us here and sharing your experiences.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:54 pm by Daynieto
GemmasMomma wrote:
I would like to add a 'ditto' to what Gail stated as what she looks for in a Dobie puppy....
1. I looked for a pedigree that had the best compliment of phenotype and genetic diversity and I compared that pedigree to the pedigree of Gemma Rose (Since the male I am choosing will be bred to her and to her progeny)
2. I am a head hunter too... I have a very specific head type that I look for and I know it when I see it....
3. conformation of body and rear angulation. Nothing I dislike more in any working breed other than mastiff's is under angulated. I want angulation in the rear for movement. I like a dog that has a little more angulation than some, but not overly done...)
I would like to add a 'ditto' to what Gail stated as what she looks for in a Dobie puppy....
1. I looked for a pedigree that had the best compliment of phenotype and genetic diversity and I compared that pedigree to the pedigree of Gemma Rose (Since the male I am choosing will be bred to her and to her progeny)
2. I am a head hunter too... I have a very specific head type that I look for and I know it when I see it....
3. conformation of body and rear angulation. Nothing I dislike more in any working breed other than mastiff's is under angulated. I want angulation in the rear for movement. I like a dog that has a little more angulation than some, but not overly done...)
Can someone explain what does under angulated means ? it has to do with the croup not been well align to the sacral bone ? a retired doberman breeder here in Mexico saw a photo of Peggy Sue and he mentioned the croup been a little lower than the sacral bone , i was like WHAT ! i didn't know anything about it, can someone enlighten me please ?
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:49 am by Apollo
Cathynu wrote:
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
Amazing information ..... seeings I'm about to embark on getting my very own Euro Import .... I am definitely also driven to a certain head .... The other thing I DO want in my dog is either the Von Norden Stamm or Von Koepsel bloodlines ..... but like Gemma's mom I need a more reserved female, as Rex is VERY hyper - he nearly drove me crazy as a puppy - it has improved over the last couple of months - but he's still pretty "busy"
And you think that will change with a female pup, HAHAHAHAHAHA
Females are evil and she will run the house in no time and since she is a euro bitch, you better buckle up for that bumpy right
Post detailsSelect: Re: A question for the breeders...How do you pick a puppy?
Posted Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:49 pm by Cathynu
Hiehie yes, Apollo, I realise this poor family is probably in for a VERY rough ride for the next year or so .... but I suppose the one who is going to put up with the most is poor old Rex .... and as the saying goes .... what goes around, comes around .... to say the least: we had a rather rough ride with him ..... he was and still is adrenalin city .... and I guess this "bitch" is going to be the same .... Hopefully a lot of that angst can be taken out in our fenced in back yard .... where grass struggles to grow because of the "rhino" hoofs running all over
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:43 pm by Dobs4ever
The correct term for "underangulated" is straight in the rear. The back legs should form a 90% angle from the hip down to the knee and the knee down to the foot. That 90% angle gives more reach and power to the back end.
If the dogs legs are more or less straight down when stacked that dog is straight in the rear.
Gosh for not being a head breed seems we all like a nice head - I know I hate a snippy snout or the collie look with little stop. I guess I have not give up up yet on the ideal - I try to weigh the entire picture - I want they perfect dog that can go from conformation to the protection field and not miss a step. So based on the sad condition of temperaments today - I probably tend to lean toward the over the top temperament.
It is a lot easier to calm a dog down that to continueally be trying to hype them up for competition. Then I hope like heck tha the temperament matches with the best puppy conformations wise. Form follows function so don't want to be too far off if it can be helped.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:57 pm by Cathynu
"It is a lot easier to calm a dog down that to continueally be trying to hype them up for competition" - I love this ovservation .... I was at a Handlers class this past Monday night - Rex is a bred in America of Euro Imports .... and very busy ..... He gets bored very easily and starts to move around in the "ring" when we have to stand waiting and waiting and waiting .... I was accused that my dog is "disruptive" ..... he also won't just stand "dead" he looks around and is very alert .....
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:03 pm by Daynieto
Thank you Suzan for answering my question .
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:59 pm by Apollo
Cathynu wrote: "It is a lot easier to calm a dog down that to continueally be trying to hype them up for competition" - I love this ovservation .... I was at a Handlers class this past Monday night - Rex is a bred in America of Euro Imports .... and very busy ..... He gets bored very easily and starts to move around in the "ring" when we have to stand waiting and waiting and waiting .... I was accused that my dog is "disruptive" ..... he also won't just stand "dead" he looks around and is very alert .....
LOL that wouldbe Aesa too
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:21 am by Dobs4ever
You are welcome and sorry I have had problems getting on and staying on here.
For the disruptive - (they can shove it)!!! A Doberman temperament is alert - that is ALERT - always on - so what I do outside the ring is I have a tuggy toy and I have to engage quietly to keep the behaving. If I stand there too long with Shrock He will get right in my face and bark - Like hey let's get this show moving.
For my girls I like to teach them to spin and twist - back up etc. All things you can do waiting to show - the use the back up in the ring to release stress. I nveer ask a dog to stand stacked unless the judge is going down the line. Mine won't do it. They are like hey lets go go go.
For the boys it is easier to use a tuggy and I don't teach them to spin at all.
Try that and see if you are a little LESS DISRUPTIVE. For gosh sakes it is a dog show they are not statues. ROFLOL
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:08 am by GemmasMomma
same here with Gemma... she did not like the whole "beauty queen" routine.. she lives for the tug toys and I could not use them in the ring.. had to use bait and she was and is not necessarily food motivated for long, whereas a tug? always gets her attention and keeps it.. she will tug till she drops and so far I drop way before she does... way...
so keeping her calm is very very challenging. She will turn, spin, back up and whine, also sit or lay down without prompting and trying to get her into a nice calm, alert perky pose... really tough.. she is sulky, moody, hangs her head and tucks her tail in the ring. She managed to finish in both IABCA and UKC, but it was work and I had to have a tug outside the ring that I could distract her with much like the 'exhibition teams' in Europe do.. I would have a tug toy and move around the ring so she could see me... then when she was under inspection, I would move out of line of sight... My husband finished her and I got her first 4 BOB's and BOS' and group wins with much smiling, encouragement and happy voices and talking about the tug toy in the ring.
It was a full time job to get her to be 'calm' and "happy" in the ring. She is a machine when it comes to working, her BH routine and a tug toy.. that is the stuff she lives for!
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:39 am by Penkeepe
GemmasMomma wrote: same here with Gemma... she did not like the whole "beauty queen" routine.. she lives for the tug toys and I could not use them in the ring.. had to use bait and she was and is not necessarily food motivated for long, whereas a tug?
Use a wash cloth. Teach your dog to play with it like a tug. You can pull it out during 'down time' in the ring to relieve the pressure, then just stuff it back in your pocket. I've gotten strange looks doing this but, hey it works!! I make sure the dog knows I have it, let them see me put it in my pocket, then you can tap your pocket to remind them it is there
