Post by trinitydobes on Aug 13, 2011 14:20:58 GMT -5
Dogs Under Fire – Ear Cropping
Posted by Dobs4ever
I had a flicker of a light bulb the other day while I was letting someone know why I would not place a puppy uncropped and YEP my light bulb flickered -
I have been told them before but I guess I really didn't get it so here is my little ray of light.
While talking to this person who claimed she really wanted one of my puppies but she wanted it uncropped. She lives in Colorado (I have several puppies in Colorado) and said that she hikes a lot and did not want people freaking out that she had a doberman. That the softer look of the uncropped dobe would cause far less problems for her.
Then her "trainer" who is an idiot agreed that with her concerns uncropped would be better. So I asked who is paying for the dog you or your trainer - if your trainer then I need to talk to them about what a Breed standard is.
Any way she admited that she used to have a rottie mix and people were afraid of it too. I said YEP big black dog - and a lot will be afraid and since the rottie mix and floppy ears the ears really had nothing to do with it but she was trying to insist.
LIGHT BULB FLICKERS - So I ask her - So you feel better misrepresenting and lying about what breed the dog is in hopes of avoiding conflict right??? Don't you feel that is hyprocritical???
Actually I would be more concerned about someone mistaking one of these guys for something else and rushing in and getting bitten because they did not realize it is a doberman.
You can't hide what this breed is. At some point someone is going to say I think that dog has doberman in it and the dog will be banned anyway. I at least want to fight for the standard and the dog as Herr Dobermann envisioned. I don't want to try to lie and hide what the dog is. It won't work anyway. Look at the hysteria over the pit bull - Anything that even comes close to the look is banned.
Dobs4ever - Dogs Under Fire
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Reply by Daynieto » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:23 pm
Very well put Suzan ! i totally agree
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Reply by Apollo » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:36 pm
HEAR HEAR, well said Suzan
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Reply by Shadowlands » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:00 pm
Excellent post Suzan! Well said.
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Reply by TrinityDobes » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:59 pm
Suzan - we must have had an ephiny at the same time, I had a puppy buyer approach me with much the same logic and my reply was if you don't want a dog to look like a doberman than get another breed.
I just read a very interesting interview of the judge Pat Hastings (she is doing the form and function seminar at the Nationals this year) the following questions are very appropriate to share here.
Interview question: As a judge, what is the first thing you look at when your class has assembled?
Pat Hastings Reply: The proper silhouette is critical to me. Length to height and length of leg to depth of body is such a critical part of breed type – If you cannot identify the beed solely by its silhouette it is lacking in type
Inteview Question: Would you like to have a go at the oldest question in dogs – type vs. soundness – and which is more important in the show ring?
Pat Hastings Reply: A breed standard is a blue print which allows the dog to do the job or which it was bred so you can not separate type and soundness because if the dog is not structurally sound enough to do the job it was bred for, then it totally lacks type.
Suzan you and I have said almost these exact words time and again in response to why we feel so strongly about respecting our breed standard, why cropping our dobes is so important and why it is so important that we embrace the breed standard it in its totality and not just pick and choose only those parts of it each person want to adhere to.
I hope that more will start to have the lightbulb go off
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Reply by Shadowlands » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:18 am
As most of you know, Juno has natural ears. For me, it was either have her shipped natural and look into having her cropped here or wait until the spring and have her shipped then. I didn't want to wait that long, so I took her natural (she was shipped before christmas and window for flying was closing fast). As it turns out, we had horrendous snow storms all of January andmost of February which made it impossible to travel just the couple of hours away to get her cropped. Long story short, she still has natural ears. Lol!! The reason I tell all this is because I didn't go out looking for a natural eared Dobe, nor is it a look I prefer. However, I have found there to be a negative side affect to the natural ears. Far too many people feel they can just walk up to her and just touch, and I know they would not have even entertained that thought if she were cropped. Thank goodness she is well socialized BUT she is still a Dobe and she is still a dog. I have seen her back away from a person or two when they try to touch her. I don't correct that behaviour as she was fine with others, but I do warn them not to move forward and try again.
On a side note, not one of these people asked me for permission either.
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Reply by TrinityDobes » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:13 am
Sandy - I absolutely understand - and do understand and acknowldge that there are those that prefer the uncropped look. The people that feel this way are creating an atmosphere of "acceptance" within the commmunity at large - that to me - sends the message that the collective "we" are accepting of this presentation of the breed. If that message gains an audience and accceptance and more and more dobes appear uncropped for what ever reason - It will not be an issue of me being allowed to have MY choice any more, because John Q Public who has been well indoctrinated by the Animal Rights movement, will vote to take my right away. This is what I am tring to prevent, the loss of me having the choice to to crop my dobes so that their breed type is maintained - so that their sillouette is instantly recognizable.
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Reply by Shadowlands » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:40 am
I am a huge advocate for fighting to keep the right to crop and dock. Those that are against it I have found are generally not "dog people" or are just grossly misinformed. Now, I do want to state that just because someone is a vet, does not mean they know a whole heck of alot about the dog world. I have found over the years the two are not synonymous. I, to this day, do not understand why there is such a huge gap between the two, but there is no denying its existence. For those that have a vet who is knowledgeable about the dog show world etc then I am very happy to hear that...and please share if they are taking new clients.
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Reply by Cathynu » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:12 pm
As you all know I'm a first time Dobe owners, and initially I wanted ONLY natural ears, because at that time I thought it gave the breed a "kinder face" .... however when we got to Rex's breeder his ears were cropped .... so we got a show standard Dobe .... and now if you asked me Cropped or Natural ..... I will ALWAYS go with cropped .... in my opinion it makes the breed what it is .... it makes them look noble and elegant .... we also haven't had the dreadful yeast infection problems we had with Jimmy our Airedale .....
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Reply by TrinityDobes » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:02 pm
There are benefits, pros and cons both ways - I am concerned about the loss of breed type.
I read another great article by a judge talking to cropped and uncropped as it related to breed identity - and this judge said if a dog is true to breed type then even blindfolded, the judge should be able to tell, by running their hands over the dog - what the breed is - and I think you can agree that "coat" is one part of breed typicity that helps with identity - size is aother - the only other smooth coated breed with cropped ears is the boxer - which is smaller than a dobe and has a different head conformation - and the dane - who is larger and has another head conformation. Even blindfolded I think a judge could seperate out and identify the short coated dobe who was cropped.
But now imagine as a judgem being blindfolded and having a dobe presented for hands on examination along with a weimeraner, a visla, a coon hound, a german short haired pointer (who in my opinion's body is is almost identical) and you can see that your possible list of breeds expands for identifying the dog. Now yes this is a blind fold test, and with your eyes open you can see color which is also a breed typicity that helps in breed identity.
Are the natural dobes still dobermans in all other ways of measurement YES ABSOLUTELY, but I do believe that part of Herr Doberman's consideration and plan when he developed the breed was to create a dog who was visually strong and intimidating - striking fear in the hearts of those he approached to collect the tax money. So we come full circle to the Look, the first impression when you see a doberman. I for one am not going to appologize for embracing my dogs heritage nor his reputation, nor that some may be afraid to aapproach me because I OBVIOUSLY have a DOBERMAN on the end of the leash - especially when we are out walking alone - or answering the door and there is a stranger on the other side.
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Reply by Cathynu » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Hear hear ladies!!! I really like what's been said here!!!
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Reply by Nancy D » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:07 pm
I had my first dobe cropped, and my vet did a beautiful job. in he beginning when the bandages cam off, I wondered if he would ever grow into his ears, but happily he did. When I got my second dobe, I choose not to have her cropped and never regretted it. She was going to be my companion, and I saw no reason for it, and believe me when I say that no one ever took her for any other breed than a doberman. Even in the countries that forbid cropping and docking, there is no mistaking a doberman. I have had 3 rescue dobermans before my current Baron, and have natural ears.
The one thing I don't like to see is most of the current show crops that are so long they look like handlebars, and they are definitely longer than what the standard calls for and the reason for cropping in the first place.Nancy D
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Reply by Dobs4ever » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:02 pm
I was speaking to Judy Doniere once and she said the ears define breed type because if you see the outline you immediately recognize the breed as a doberman. This is breed type.
I agree that all the uncropped are killing us. It appears we don't care for the standard but I tell you when the standard falls there are NO purebred dogs - The standard is what describes the perfect example of each breed.
Than goodnes the Doberman does not look as stupid as the great dane and boxer. They just look really dummied down. But it is not going to help this breed to not crop. If you polled most of the countries in Europe I am betting that the majority would prefer cropped.
Even people who go to BYB usually end up taking them to the vet to be cropped. Read they list - they are always wanting help with cropping issue.
I findit very hard to understand how someone chooses a breed and then wants to start changing it. I don't feel we have that right - we did not create it - we just enjoy it.
It also concerns me that people are ok with wanting to mislead people on what breed it is. Believe you me when BSL comes down the ears or lack there of will not save us. The hysteria will prevail and the idiots will win. We must dig in our heels and protect and preserve the Dobermann as Herr Dobermann intended.
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Reply by Apollo » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:48 am
I'm from germany, always admired the doberman my whole live and loved the look of the docked and cropped and then when the time came, that could get my own, they banned docking and cropping. I never owned one in germany because of that and same gilt for all the other docked and cropped breeds.
I think it should be everyones own decision if they want their dog cropped and docked and it shouldn't be dicated from people who not really know what they been talking about.
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Reply by Dobs4ever » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:31 am
Tina - thank you for sharing that info. I so wish I could understand how the country that has produced the most outstanding working breeds - doberman, giant schnauzer got so far out of whack. That was years ago - What was going on then to influence them to destroy a breed standard as set by its creator. Truly it boggles my mind.
I would have thought Germany above all others would have fought to maintain the integrity of the great breeds it is responsible for.
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Reply by Apollo » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:41 am
Suzan i thought so too and i can't figure it out why they banned docking and cropping as first countrie in the world and thats were we are the onces who produce all the docked and cropped breeds or most of them, Boxers,Rottweilers, Giant Schnautzer or all the Schnautzers, Dobermans, Poodle , Weimeraner, Pointers, Miniature Pinscher, German Pinscher, i could go on , some of them were only docked, but anyways, i do not understand why we had to bann it and change the whole aperiance ( sp) of the breeds.
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Posted by Dobs4ever
I had a flicker of a light bulb the other day while I was letting someone know why I would not place a puppy uncropped and YEP my light bulb flickered -
I have been told them before but I guess I really didn't get it so here is my little ray of light.
While talking to this person who claimed she really wanted one of my puppies but she wanted it uncropped. She lives in Colorado (I have several puppies in Colorado) and said that she hikes a lot and did not want people freaking out that she had a doberman. That the softer look of the uncropped dobe would cause far less problems for her.
Then her "trainer" who is an idiot agreed that with her concerns uncropped would be better. So I asked who is paying for the dog you or your trainer - if your trainer then I need to talk to them about what a Breed standard is.
Any way she admited that she used to have a rottie mix and people were afraid of it too. I said YEP big black dog - and a lot will be afraid and since the rottie mix and floppy ears the ears really had nothing to do with it but she was trying to insist.
LIGHT BULB FLICKERS - So I ask her - So you feel better misrepresenting and lying about what breed the dog is in hopes of avoiding conflict right??? Don't you feel that is hyprocritical???
Actually I would be more concerned about someone mistaking one of these guys for something else and rushing in and getting bitten because they did not realize it is a doberman.
You can't hide what this breed is. At some point someone is going to say I think that dog has doberman in it and the dog will be banned anyway. I at least want to fight for the standard and the dog as Herr Dobermann envisioned. I don't want to try to lie and hide what the dog is. It won't work anyway. Look at the hysteria over the pit bull - Anything that even comes close to the look is banned.
Dobs4ever - Dogs Under Fire
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Reply by Daynieto » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:23 pm
Very well put Suzan ! i totally agree
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Apollo » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:36 pm
HEAR HEAR, well said Suzan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Shadowlands » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:00 pm
Excellent post Suzan! Well said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Reply by TrinityDobes » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:59 pm
Suzan - we must have had an ephiny at the same time, I had a puppy buyer approach me with much the same logic and my reply was if you don't want a dog to look like a doberman than get another breed.
I just read a very interesting interview of the judge Pat Hastings (she is doing the form and function seminar at the Nationals this year) the following questions are very appropriate to share here.
Interview question: As a judge, what is the first thing you look at when your class has assembled?
Pat Hastings Reply: The proper silhouette is critical to me. Length to height and length of leg to depth of body is such a critical part of breed type – If you cannot identify the beed solely by its silhouette it is lacking in type
Inteview Question: Would you like to have a go at the oldest question in dogs – type vs. soundness – and which is more important in the show ring?
Pat Hastings Reply: A breed standard is a blue print which allows the dog to do the job or which it was bred so you can not separate type and soundness because if the dog is not structurally sound enough to do the job it was bred for, then it totally lacks type.
Suzan you and I have said almost these exact words time and again in response to why we feel so strongly about respecting our breed standard, why cropping our dobes is so important and why it is so important that we embrace the breed standard it in its totality and not just pick and choose only those parts of it each person want to adhere to.
I hope that more will start to have the lightbulb go off
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Shadowlands » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:18 am
As most of you know, Juno has natural ears. For me, it was either have her shipped natural and look into having her cropped here or wait until the spring and have her shipped then. I didn't want to wait that long, so I took her natural (she was shipped before christmas and window for flying was closing fast). As it turns out, we had horrendous snow storms all of January andmost of February which made it impossible to travel just the couple of hours away to get her cropped. Long story short, she still has natural ears. Lol!! The reason I tell all this is because I didn't go out looking for a natural eared Dobe, nor is it a look I prefer. However, I have found there to be a negative side affect to the natural ears. Far too many people feel they can just walk up to her and just touch, and I know they would not have even entertained that thought if she were cropped. Thank goodness she is well socialized BUT she is still a Dobe and she is still a dog. I have seen her back away from a person or two when they try to touch her. I don't correct that behaviour as she was fine with others, but I do warn them not to move forward and try again.
On a side note, not one of these people asked me for permission either.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by TrinityDobes » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:13 am
Sandy - I absolutely understand - and do understand and acknowldge that there are those that prefer the uncropped look. The people that feel this way are creating an atmosphere of "acceptance" within the commmunity at large - that to me - sends the message that the collective "we" are accepting of this presentation of the breed. If that message gains an audience and accceptance and more and more dobes appear uncropped for what ever reason - It will not be an issue of me being allowed to have MY choice any more, because John Q Public who has been well indoctrinated by the Animal Rights movement, will vote to take my right away. This is what I am tring to prevent, the loss of me having the choice to to crop my dobes so that their breed type is maintained - so that their sillouette is instantly recognizable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Shadowlands » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:40 am
I am a huge advocate for fighting to keep the right to crop and dock. Those that are against it I have found are generally not "dog people" or are just grossly misinformed. Now, I do want to state that just because someone is a vet, does not mean they know a whole heck of alot about the dog world. I have found over the years the two are not synonymous. I, to this day, do not understand why there is such a huge gap between the two, but there is no denying its existence. For those that have a vet who is knowledgeable about the dog show world etc then I am very happy to hear that...and please share if they are taking new clients.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Cathynu » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:12 pm
As you all know I'm a first time Dobe owners, and initially I wanted ONLY natural ears, because at that time I thought it gave the breed a "kinder face" .... however when we got to Rex's breeder his ears were cropped .... so we got a show standard Dobe .... and now if you asked me Cropped or Natural ..... I will ALWAYS go with cropped .... in my opinion it makes the breed what it is .... it makes them look noble and elegant .... we also haven't had the dreadful yeast infection problems we had with Jimmy our Airedale .....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Reply by TrinityDobes » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:02 pm
There are benefits, pros and cons both ways - I am concerned about the loss of breed type.
I read another great article by a judge talking to cropped and uncropped as it related to breed identity - and this judge said if a dog is true to breed type then even blindfolded, the judge should be able to tell, by running their hands over the dog - what the breed is - and I think you can agree that "coat" is one part of breed typicity that helps with identity - size is aother - the only other smooth coated breed with cropped ears is the boxer - which is smaller than a dobe and has a different head conformation - and the dane - who is larger and has another head conformation. Even blindfolded I think a judge could seperate out and identify the short coated dobe who was cropped.
But now imagine as a judgem being blindfolded and having a dobe presented for hands on examination along with a weimeraner, a visla, a coon hound, a german short haired pointer (who in my opinion's body is is almost identical) and you can see that your possible list of breeds expands for identifying the dog. Now yes this is a blind fold test, and with your eyes open you can see color which is also a breed typicity that helps in breed identity.
Are the natural dobes still dobermans in all other ways of measurement YES ABSOLUTELY, but I do believe that part of Herr Doberman's consideration and plan when he developed the breed was to create a dog who was visually strong and intimidating - striking fear in the hearts of those he approached to collect the tax money. So we come full circle to the Look, the first impression when you see a doberman. I for one am not going to appologize for embracing my dogs heritage nor his reputation, nor that some may be afraid to aapproach me because I OBVIOUSLY have a DOBERMAN on the end of the leash - especially when we are out walking alone - or answering the door and there is a stranger on the other side.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Cathynu » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Hear hear ladies!!! I really like what's been said here!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Nancy D » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:07 pm
I had my first dobe cropped, and my vet did a beautiful job. in he beginning when the bandages cam off, I wondered if he would ever grow into his ears, but happily he did. When I got my second dobe, I choose not to have her cropped and never regretted it. She was going to be my companion, and I saw no reason for it, and believe me when I say that no one ever took her for any other breed than a doberman. Even in the countries that forbid cropping and docking, there is no mistaking a doberman. I have had 3 rescue dobermans before my current Baron, and have natural ears.
The one thing I don't like to see is most of the current show crops that are so long they look like handlebars, and they are definitely longer than what the standard calls for and the reason for cropping in the first place.Nancy D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Dobs4ever » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:02 pm
I was speaking to Judy Doniere once and she said the ears define breed type because if you see the outline you immediately recognize the breed as a doberman. This is breed type.
I agree that all the uncropped are killing us. It appears we don't care for the standard but I tell you when the standard falls there are NO purebred dogs - The standard is what describes the perfect example of each breed.
Than goodnes the Doberman does not look as stupid as the great dane and boxer. They just look really dummied down. But it is not going to help this breed to not crop. If you polled most of the countries in Europe I am betting that the majority would prefer cropped.
Even people who go to BYB usually end up taking them to the vet to be cropped. Read they list - they are always wanting help with cropping issue.
I findit very hard to understand how someone chooses a breed and then wants to start changing it. I don't feel we have that right - we did not create it - we just enjoy it.
It also concerns me that people are ok with wanting to mislead people on what breed it is. Believe you me when BSL comes down the ears or lack there of will not save us. The hysteria will prevail and the idiots will win. We must dig in our heels and protect and preserve the Dobermann as Herr Dobermann intended.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Apollo » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:48 am
I'm from germany, always admired the doberman my whole live and loved the look of the docked and cropped and then when the time came, that could get my own, they banned docking and cropping. I never owned one in germany because of that and same gilt for all the other docked and cropped breeds.
I think it should be everyones own decision if they want their dog cropped and docked and it shouldn't be dicated from people who not really know what they been talking about.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Dobs4ever » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:31 am
Tina - thank you for sharing that info. I so wish I could understand how the country that has produced the most outstanding working breeds - doberman, giant schnauzer got so far out of whack. That was years ago - What was going on then to influence them to destroy a breed standard as set by its creator. Truly it boggles my mind.
I would have thought Germany above all others would have fought to maintain the integrity of the great breeds it is responsible for.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply by Apollo » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:41 am
Suzan i thought so too and i can't figure it out why they banned docking and cropping as first countrie in the world and thats were we are the onces who produce all the docked and cropped breeds or most of them, Boxers,Rottweilers, Giant Schnautzer or all the Schnautzers, Dobermans, Poodle , Weimeraner, Pointers, Miniature Pinscher, German Pinscher, i could go on , some of them were only docked, but anyways, i do not understand why we had to bann it and change the whole aperiance ( sp) of the breeds.
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