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Post by DeDe on Dec 22, 2011 7:49:43 GMT -5
I have heard, over and over again, "It's a doberman! Of course it will bite and protect! I don't need to train it for that!" People, WAKE UP! Have you truly LOOKED at the dobermans out there today? Can you honestly say that you KNOW, without a doubt, that your 'doberman' will stand up to some guy wigged out on crack? If you DO say this, how can you be sure then that this same dog will not bite some drunk stumbling about trying to stay out of your way? Or some kid yelling and screaming and running by you? When you train your dobermann in the protection venues, you not only are training it WHEN to bite and protect, but also when NOT to bite! You are teaching the dog CONTROL! YOU control when he/she can or cannot react. YOU control the dog when the fight is over. YOU control the dog that has misinterpreted a threat! Teaching the dobermann a protection sport, or personal protection, is not about teaching the dog TO bite. It's about CONTROL! 90% of Schutzhund protection work is about OBEDIENCE! A good PP dog is all about OBEDIENCE! Those of us that DO 'work' our dogs in some form of 'structured' protection work are not training 'attack' dogs, but 'obedient' dogs. Attack dogs are not trained to think or reason things. They have no control. This is NOT what we support! Just some food for thought.....
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Post by turbok9 on Dec 22, 2011 9:13:27 GMT -5
Of course, even IF the dog has the gumption to protect on it's own, would they really want it to? Little Johnny, plays a little rough with one of his buddies... oops. Walking down the street, and a parent raises voice to one of their kids as you walk by... oops. The list goes on.
Not to mention, if you are home, someone breaks in, your dog engages... and then, when the person submits, you can't get the dog off them... oops.
There is a LOT to be said for bitework being obedience for the teeth. In 15 + years of training responsibly for protection, we have NEVER had a uncommanded or unwarranted bite. EVER. How many 'pet' owners and other that don't train responsibly can say that?
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Post by trinitydobes on Dec 22, 2011 18:37:15 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts both of you -
and since I have no real experience of training a protection dog but understand the theory and concept- I will break it down for the other blond members -
trusting your dog to demonstrate his protection instint without training is a bit like allowing the dogs protection switch to be TURNED ON but not have an OFF SWITCH. Training is what gives the dog an OFF SWITCH.
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Post by von Cosack on Dec 22, 2011 18:54:35 GMT -5
For the past 35 years most of the "switches" are broke or "missing" on the American bred dogs and theres plenty of Euro breds that don't have the temperament to be calm an settle without running 90 miles and giving them quadludes. The inherited protection factor isn't there sadly but even if it was you still need to shut the damn dog OFF! Try doing that without training and your gonna get bit, trust me!! A dog in fight mode without PP training will turn on flash and bite anything touching it when in defense or fight drive. 'So they probablly won't bite but if they do you get bit trying to stop them, interesting. Maybe thats why we train working guard breeds so they do what they were bred to do!! Thats sounds familar? Nah! Von
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Post by Nellie on Dec 22, 2011 19:53:11 GMT -5
For the past 35 years most of the "switches" are broke or "missing" on the American bred dogs and theres plenty of Euro breds that don't have the temperament to be calm an settle without running 90 miles and giving them quadludes. Is this due to nature or nurture? I often ask myself this. This breed is so moldable as puppies. For example: Most people teach them not to put their feet on anyone - how can they protect (go forward and actually bite) if they aren't' allowed to put their feet up? I have seen many Dobes go into conflict between what they were taught as pups and their natural drives as they develop into themselves.
But I do agree that due to selectively breeding for 'other' qualities the natural protective nature has been bred out of the breed here. There is no requirement to prove the real Dobermann temperament before breeding as in the ZTP. Personally I have seen more real temperament in some of the BYB dogs I have seen than in a lot of the 'show' dogs here.
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Post by donnatoldu2 on Dec 26, 2011 19:14:48 GMT -5
Good info..I know I go nuts when I read the threads of people bragging about their young dogs barking ferociously as they guard them from someone walking by on the street and how they know they will protect them. Oh I want to say so much but it is always received so badly I turn away and shrug. Oh well. I don't know even with all the training my dog is getting whether he will protect but at least I know I can down him or turn him off thanks to Chris and his training.
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Post by DeDe on Dec 26, 2011 19:43:35 GMT -5
Exactly my point, Donna. Without any training, there are no guarantees either way...
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Post by von Cosack on Dec 27, 2011 15:04:09 GMT -5
donna; are you training in PP? If so why don't you know if the dog will protect? Von
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Post by DeDe on Dec 27, 2011 16:35:37 GMT -5
Von, she's training in SchH...
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Post by donnatoldu2 on Dec 27, 2011 20:50:42 GMT -5
Thanks DeDe. I train Schutzhund with a touch of Civil work. There is every indication he will fire up no matter what but until I prove it to myself I will not guess. I do know he drops like a stone when he is told to platz even when lit up but that is as far as I will assume.
I had a rescue dog named Rock and he was PP trained and yes he would protect and yes he would stop on command. I loved it. He came to me like that tho. Donna
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Post by donnatoldu2 on Dec 27, 2011 20:51:54 GMT -5
A prime example..on another list someone talked about an 8 week old puppy hearing something and running to their side to protect them...Really??? Hmmm.....??
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Post by von Cosack on Dec 29, 2011 9:24:05 GMT -5
If your dog can excell in sport and you enjoy the games then buy all means try for all the marbles. However if the dog doesn't show promise in all phases of Sch. and you want the dog to be protective with his family you should begin PP training. The sports that include bite work often ruin a dog that could excell at PP work. The differences are enormous in the methods and techniques and the repetitive sleeve work in Sch. becomes a blinding exercise. Most Sch. dogs who have alot of time into the sport don't do well transfering into a reality training, they can't handle the training because of the situations they need to be in and maintain stability to excell. Some can do it if their not engulfed in sports but most can't. Evaluate the dog and be true to the dogs character then decide now whats best for his health and happiness. Von
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Post by Nellie on Dec 29, 2011 9:55:26 GMT -5
If your dog can excell in sport and you enjoy the games then buy all means try for all the marbles. However if the dog doesn't show promise in all phases of Sch. and you want the dog to be protective with his family you should begin PP training. The sports that include bite work often ruin a dog that could excell at PP work. The differences are enormous in the methods and techniques and the repetitive sleeve work in Sch. becomes a blinding exercise. Most Sch. dogs who have alot of time into the sport don't do well transfering into a reality training, they can't handle the training because of the situations they need to be in and maintain stability to excell. Some can do it if their not engulfed in sports but most can't. Evaluate the dog and be true to the dogs character then decide now whats best for his health and happiness. Von I was fortunate to have a dog that could and DID do both. I honestly feel that the true and correct temperament of the breed allows for both. My dog earned her SchH 3 - and also was a WWKC CH, as well as earning her AKC CD and her CGC. The decoy I had at the time was, like you, raised with PP, and he enjoyed presenting her with challenges on and off the sport field. I think it is unfortunate that more of the 'sport' trainers don't incorporate the PP work in the training. I think we would be surprised at how many of our dogs could actually do the work. A friend of mine in Europe that has had more than his fair share of dogs that have passed the Korung told me that prior to taking the test he works his dogs in PP type work to better show the dogs 'true' aggression. Just because a dog is 'Sport' titled does not mean they will not protect, as the breed is intended to do.
GOOD PP trainers are very hard to find these days. If the training does NOT include obedience and control, RUN, do not walk away from that trainer. This is like having a loaded gun with no safety!!
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Post by von Cosack on Dec 29, 2011 11:55:27 GMT -5
Ofcourse a quality dog could do both! As I said Methods & Techniques rule how things are done and the out come. I know some pretty good trainers who have competed on world stages in sport who have limited to NO experience on how to train in PP. The philosophy is completely different but the novice person watching a trial dog do bite work thinks its PP. OB is the key and after starting an experiment with my current dog as to NOT OB train as a young pup as many old Sch. and current sport trainers advocate I can state with my dog it was the WRONG approach!! The best PP dogs have tons of OB on them starting when you get them (8 weeks). I have rarely finished a PP dog who wasn't excellant off leash and OB proven. If they bite and feel as though theres NO TEAM then you have the makings of an attack dog reacting on its own then you have problems. Von
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Post by turbok9 on Dec 31, 2011 0:29:34 GMT -5
For the past 35 years most of the "switches" are broke or "missing" on the American bred dogs and theres plenty of Euro breds that don't have the temperament to be calm an settle without running 90 miles and giving them quadludes. The inherited protection factor isn't there sadly but even if it was you still need to shut the damn dog OFF! Try doing that without training and your gonna get bit, trust me!! A dog in fight mode without PP training will turn on flash and bite anything touching it when in defense or fight drive. 'So they probably won't bite but if they do you get bit trying to stop them, interesting. Maybe thats why we train working guard breeds so they do what they were bred to do!! Thats sounds familar? Nah! Von Though I agree that the typical American breeding program is lacking, I have never had a problem in bringing my not only American bred, but rescued, broken, dogs to the level I require to trust in their abilities or their 'switches'. There is a lot to be said when it comes to the ability to tailor a training program to each dog, and understanding what is necessary to bring out the requirements of PP work. Truthfully, some that I have / have had probably wouldn't fair well against an FR 3 decoy with a clatter stick.... but then, I have yet to see a burglar with a clatter stick that could confront 3 Dobermanns with an "I will eat you" attitude, all while feeling comparatively little pain when bitten. On the other hand, I have a rescue right now who came to us a neurotic fearful mess, who will now engage through about anything with complete disregard for anything but the bite, and call off without a hitch. Do American breeding programs need improvement? By and large, yes. Are the dogs incapable of PP work? In the proper hands, with skilled training, they are very capable. Breeding programs in America may be lacking, but IMHO the reliance on canned training programs and inflexibilty of methods due to ignorance in training are as much a fault not just in this country but worldwide. A better bred dog will give better performance given the same time and effort in training, no doubt. But given equal opportunity, even a broken 'shiter' can taken to a completely adequate level of proficiency with a little luck, skill, and patience.
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